Greater Daemons & Daemon Princes

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Greater Daemons & Daemon Princes

Post  System Commander on Fri Mar 15, 2013 10:45 am

So I've had two games with the big guys, and they seem really bonkers to me.

I've taken a Bloodthirster and a AFlying Khorne Daemon prince, both with 2 greater rewards each game. Last nights game against Ryan my Bloodthirster rolled +1 wound and It will not Die, and the Daemon Prince got +1 wound and It will not die and took the weapon giving him Rampage.

So.. a flying monstorus creature with 6 wounds, 3+ armour, it will not die and feel no pain on a 4+ ! This isn't going to be uncommon either.. the greater rewards are all great.. except for Warp forged armour which the guys already have, but trading it in for rampage is still pretty awesome.

So in both games I had the first turn and flew my guys 36" and plunked them directly in the opponents deployment zone. Ack.. what do you do?

THis was only playing with 1 and 1. I'm sure people will be playing with 2 greater daemons and another 2-3 daemon princes.. thats alot of guys you figure out how to kill who will be showing up in your deployment in no time.

Yeah, the old codex could do it to.. but the greater daeomons are much stronger now, and the daemon princes with the chance to get fnp 4+ or it will not die.. they are tough to kill.

Small arms fire has always been the quickest way for my daemon princes to die in the past.. but with flying rules now it just hard to get at them.

If you know your going to be facing daemons, what precautions are you going to make to combat them?

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Re: Greater Daemons & Daemon Princes

Post  miv305 on Fri Mar 15, 2013 11:18 am

GK Force Weapons Razz

Mindshackle Scarabs and bigger mobs (say 10 man units) of Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield Terminators should also do the trick. What's nice is that this type of codex adds a new meta, making all comer's lists a little tougher to make. Some will say that's bad, I'll say the opposite as you can't just take 8 Razorbacks and meltaguns anymore.

Mike

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Re: Greater Daemons & Daemon Princes

Post  Lore Weaver on Fri Mar 15, 2013 11:39 am

I think the trick is to ground them with small-arms fire (or something with skyfire//any significant volume), then tarpit them with something fearless/stubborn that costs a lot less points.

What I fear, is that someone will clue in to how amazing they are and take 4.

How - the - heck would you deal with 5. It boggles the mind.

Thirster, heralds, bloodletters x some number, flesh hounds, maybe some Furies (Just to piss off your opponent with 20 jump-pack dudes for 165 points), then 3 daemon princes with wings and 2xgreater rewards.

Beastly.

As a Necron Player, Annihilation Barges & Nightscythes are going to mess you up, but maybe only 1 per turn (and not necessarily dead either, especially if you get a 4+FnP).

Dark Angel banner might be okay (lotsa shots, wounding on 5's as you're only T5 on the princes)

...

Ya, it's a strong list.

I'd still build it with Tzeentch though :-) Lord of Change with Divination rolls and then lvl 1 rolling on change for the princes is pretty cool (Hoping for the AP2 beam, otherwise grabbing the 2D6 heavy bolter shots)

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Re: Greater Daemons & Daemon Princes

Post  Lore Weaver on Fri Mar 15, 2013 11:42 am

Mike's right about Mindshackle, you're making that test on LD 9 for a prince. The turn you pass it though, you're totally going to wang a necron.

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Re: Greater Daemons & Daemon Princes

Post  Rhaevyn on Fri Mar 15, 2013 1:33 pm

Dunno mike, 8 razorbacks and melta guns would probably do fairly good vs 4 FMC's Smile put those marines on foot and shoot bolters at the flyers until they crash and burn, then light them up with las/plas. and god forbid the Bloodthirster kills a transport per game turn.

4 FMC is going to cost you 1000+ points. wont take too much to kill the few points of token troops you have on the table. I'm not scared. yet anyway.

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Re: Greater Daemons & Daemon Princes

Post  System Commander on Fri Mar 15, 2013 1:50 pm

I think it will definitly shiffle up the meta.. But lists that have.been strong in the past will still be pretty good.against.5 flying.big.guys.. Its the reat of em thatll take the beating.

Necron lord with wraiths will still be great against them. Necron flyers amd barges are still.both great options... Feath ray can kill a DP in one shot if you fail your invul save. Grey knights with force weapons a plenty anf a ton of.prescence str 5 bolters and psycannons will also be able to blow em away..

Its the rest of the balanced type armies that are gonna take beating. I had the two big guys and a heldrake. Ryan had some devastators with.flakk missiles but.they could.do nothing to the prince.. Flakk missiles are only ap4 and he had Fnp. It

Im using Daemons/marines right now.. But im going to field a.full daemons list next. Ill have the.bloodthirster and 4 khorne heralds.. Two daemon princes but one will be in foot... And the rest troops and flesh hounds. Half the army will be able.to assault on turn 2 ! Scary stuff.. Ive been waiting.for a good assault army and the daemons have it.. I just hope the big guys arent to far out for lunch..

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Re: Greater Daemons & Daemon Princes

Post  Aegwymourn on Fri Mar 15, 2013 1:52 pm

Rhaevyn wrote:Dunno mike, 8 razorbacks and melta guns would probably do fairly good vs 4 FMC's Smile put those marines on foot and shoot bolters at the flyers until they crash and burn, then light them up with las/plas. and god forbid the Bloodthirster kills a transport per game turn.

4 FMC is going to cost you 1000+ points. wont take too much FOR MY HELLDRAKES! Razz to kill the few points of token troops you have on the table. I'm not scared. yet anyway.

fixed it for you!

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Re: Greater Daemons & Daemon Princes

Post  gluvzer on Fri Mar 15, 2013 1:58 pm

miv305 wrote:GK Force Weapons Razz

Mindshackle Scarabs and bigger mobs (say 10 man units) of Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield Terminators should also do the trick. What's nice is that this type of codex adds a new meta, making all comer's lists a little tougher to make. Some will say that's bad, I'll say the opposite as you can't just take 8 Razorbacks and meltaguns anymore.

Mike

Yah, because having balance would be bad?.... Knowing a game is over before its already begun is usually super fun for both players, right?

I hate the idea of having to meta game whatever army you're playing against to make a game of it.

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Re: Greater Daemons & Daemon Princes

Post  Planes on Fri Mar 15, 2013 2:00 pm

How many wounds do those big beasties generally start off with, prior to rewards and such? I'm starting to eye up the TLab again.

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Re: Greater Daemons & Daemon Princes

Post  Lore Weaver on Fri Mar 15, 2013 2:40 pm

Blood Thirster with two gifts is 290 pts

WS/BS 10, S/T 6, 5 wounds, init 9, six attacks. Flies with 3+ armour.

A flying Khorne daemon prince with 3+ armour and two gifts runs at 260pts.

T5 and 4 wounds.

I'd argue that the smart way to build an "all comers" demon list would be to take the 'thirster and one daemon prince from heavy, then grab 4 heralds, some troops, and maybe a skull cannon and a soul grinder.

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Re: Greater Daemons & Daemon Princes

Post  System Commander on Fri Mar 15, 2013 3:14 pm

Thats the way Im.planning on playing it.. Then puttng karanak with a 20 squad of letters and a herald or two with a big squad of flesh hounds. Itll be fast for sure but will take a bunch of wounds from shooting.

Id love to.see.a comp system.brought back into the game. The 20 point system you used recently Mark is used a lot throughout australia.. But they also couple it with a comp system. You can bring.a.scary/annoying army but you might have a.comp score of 0.. Where a sisters or.templars army might have a 4.. Meaning you get a bonus 4 points.for each you game you play.


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Re: Greater Daemons & Daemon Princes

Post  Lore Weaver on Fri Mar 15, 2013 3:27 pm

I'm not a huge fan of punishing people for writing a tight army list. (or, rewarding those who write bad lists)

It's pretty subjective.

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Re: Greater Daemons & Daemon Princes

Post  System Commander on Fri Mar 15, 2013 4:22 pm

Its completly subjective... And a highly sensitive topic for sure.

Im for it personally.. But the way some of.other tournies do it is through a judge panel. Certain armies are tiered based on older lists, maxed heavy slots.. Those types of things. Its a ton.of work but does work towards more balanced lists.

Its probjust a hold out from the old composition lists that were mandatory back in the ol' days.


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Re: Greater Daemons & Daemon Princes

Post  Lore Weaver on Fri Mar 15, 2013 4:42 pm

Ya, I remember doing comp scores back in 3rd edition.

That was back when people were taking 5-man marine squads with Lascannon Plasma gun for 95 points.

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Re: Greater Daemons & Daemon Princes

Post  Guardian Angel on Fri Mar 15, 2013 5:43 pm

System Commander wrote:

Its the rest of the balanced type armies that are gonna take beating. I had the two big guys and a heldrake. Ryan had some devastators with.flakk missiles but.they could.do nothing to the prince.. Flakk missiles are only ap4 and he had Fnp. It


The problem was too many flying threats for me. The Demon Prince, Thrister & Heldrake makes too many threats to take out with the shooting I had fielded. With that many threats, something was guaranteed to make it into my lines, and any one of them would destroy it. I knew the game was over before it began when I saw 3 flyers and I only have one dedicated unit to kill flyers. And Rob was right, it was anti-armour flyer....not FMC cause flakk missles are AP 4.

To be honest, I am not sure what I would have to take to be able to deal with the list Rob brought last night. Even a "Devastation Standard" list would be in trouble because the Heldrake would eat them for breakfast....cause 4 Flakk Missles from a Dev Squad will hit the drake, but will have a hard time reliably punching through his AV 12 armour with a Str 7 missle.

Against a list with 5+ flyers, I think I would just shake hands and walk away....unless I brought a flying circus too.

It was my first full game under 6th Ed rules though....so I may seriously have to look at the lists I bring and try to build 2 or 3 flyers into my lists as well. So far, from what I am seeing and reading....6th edition will be all about flyer spam....5th was armour/melta spam....4th was....

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Re: Greater Daemons & Daemon Princes

Post  gluvzer on Fri Mar 15, 2013 5:45 pm

Lore Weaver wrote:Ya, I remember doing comp scores back in 3rd edition.

That was back when people were taking 5-man marine squads with Lascannon Plasma gun for 95 points.

All we really did back then was put percentages on composition and wargear. Going over set values took points off your comp score. Things have changed dramatically since then. A system like that would definitely not work where the game is now.

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Re: Greater Daemons & Daemon Princes

Post  gluvzer on Fri Mar 15, 2013 5:50 pm

The big problem with 6th, besides bad rules, is how flyers have completely imbalanced the game. There are too many codex's that simply cannot deal with them. And the tools that are offered are not good enough to do it either.

So here comes ALLIES!! "Go buy Vendetta's" says GW.

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Re: Greater Daemons & Daemon Princes

Post  Roland on Fri Mar 15, 2013 7:22 pm

Why buy a vendetta? My Dark Talon cost 50%,more, so it must be 50% more effective!

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Re: Greater Daemons & Daemon Princes

Post  Paz on Fri Mar 15, 2013 8:08 pm

Ryan- I have yet to play a game of 6th where I thought flyers won the game for the other guy before the game started.

My princes get grounded very game, and even playing against a 2 helldrake/ oblits list, I still felt I had a chance.

I'm also constantly afraid of instant death weapons for my gd's. there are so many things that can insta-gib mc's now.

For instance, reading the DE dex, grotesques seem great for mashing up big monsters. The loss of eternal warrior across the board has levelled the playing field quite a bit.

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Re: Greater Daemons & Daemon Princes

Post  Lore Weaver on Fri Mar 15, 2013 8:45 pm

It's pretty rock-paper-scissors.

My AV13 list will hose double-dragon Chaos (even with a pair of flying DP's) 90% of the time. (3 Annihilation Barges and no real targets for the Heldrake)

===

That said, I've seen vendetta's come on the board and basically delete something. Feeling powerless to stop something that happens on turn 3 hurts me in my competitive place.

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Re: Greater Daemons & Daemon Princes

Post  gluvzer on Fri Mar 15, 2013 9:52 pm

Paz wrote:Ryan- I have yet to play a game of 6th where I thought flyers won the game for the other guy before the game started.

Lucky you! Close to every game I played of 6th I knew the outcome at before the 1st turn. Be it seeing my opponents list, or the mission played and where objectives ended up.

I sure bet it would be fun to have to ground 5 flying MC's with a Marine army.

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Re: Greater Daemons & Daemon Princes

Post  dusktiger on Fri Mar 15, 2013 11:21 pm

going back to earlier to knights and nemesis weapons. tell me if i'm understanding this right;

you have both the nemesis rule AND daemonbane on the swords. if he does a wound on your greater daemon and you fail to save it, the knight does a Ld check to see if he instant deaths you. if he fails that, because your a daemon, you have to do a Ld check to still see if he instant deaths you or not. is that how that works? if that's the case, taking psycho grenades and hoping for the Ld 2 result is a knight's best chance to kill a Big D if your the type that rolls poorly at the worst time.

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Re: Greater Daemons & Daemon Princes

Post  Planes on Fri Mar 15, 2013 11:29 pm

Don't forget the default grenades they get that drop Daemons to I1 for the first round of combat.

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Re: Greater Daemons & Daemon Princes

Post  Commander James of the Ul on Sat Mar 16, 2013 7:27 am

Planes wrote:Don't forget the default grenades they get that drop Daemons to I1 for the first round of combat.

Thats only if GK's get the charge. If Gk's get charged then no dice. I do believe its the last paragraph under psy-out grenades.

Force Weapons work like this. At int set roll to hit, then roll to wound, and after a successful hit and wound you may the activate the force weapon by a psychic test. On a successful psychic test the poor bastard is removed.

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Re: Greater Daemons & Daemon Princes

Post  Guest on Sun Mar 17, 2013 6:53 pm

I read the daemons codex this week, and the 4-5 flying monstrous creature list came to mind.

Immediate issue that came to mind was instant death. Especially the princes If at T5. Rail guns, Ork power klaws (gazkull in particular with his 2+ invul), def rollas, smash attacks, manticore shots. And every grey knight unit only needs to land one wound in cc. And i think force weapons can ignore FnP now in the update. If they can get around this, they will wreck face.

So, cool army concept, but not undefeatable. Imagine charging into a horde of poisonous termagaunts, dp or prince could lose that combat, especially if a tyrant blinds it.

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Re: Greater Daemons & Daemon Princes

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