I'm a big Master of Deception Cheater

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I'm a big Master of Deception Cheater

Post  Lore Weaver on Mon Mar 11, 2013 3:51 pm

So.... the days of me using Ahriman to infiltrate up my Mutilators are sorta-kinda-but-not-really over.

Ahriman doesn't have an opportunity to join the Mutilators before he's deployed, so he can't give them Infiltrate. He can, however, go into reserves with a unit, grant them infiltrate, which grants them outflank, and outflank. Look for this on a table-top near you!

This ability can be used to grant any infantry unit Infiltrate, like Chaos Daemons (Daemonettes? Bloodletters? both good options here)

Gone are the days of me using Independent characters to tether along units using Infiltrate. If I want Ahriman to deploy up with the Mutilators, I have to roll a 2+ on the D3 so they can both do it.

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Re: I'm a big Master of Deception Cheater

Post  Rhaevyn on Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:21 pm

i dont see what has changed? can IC's not join units before they are deployed?

has there been a faq?

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Re: I'm a big Master of Deception Cheater

Post  Lore Weaver on Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:44 pm

Nope, I think we just mis-interpreted the independent character rules.

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Re: I'm a big Master of Deception Cheater

Post  Rhaevyn on Mon Mar 11, 2013 5:43 pm

totally off topic. but i'm just re-reading the character rules and i dont think i've ever noticed the Get 'im boss rule.

If, at the start of any Fight sub-phase, one or more of your
units is locked in combat with a single model who is
fighting in a challerg€, your charactqr receives one re-roll
for every fi.ve models forced to watch in this manner. These
re-rolls can be used on his To Hit rolls, To
'Wound rolls or saving
throws. Any re-rolls not used by the end of the phase are lost.

Anyway.

your saying that neither unit exists until you deploy them, and the character cant give the infiltrate rule to the unit until after its already deployed? in which case its too late?

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Re: I'm a big Master of Deception Cheater

Post  Aegwymourn on Mon Mar 11, 2013 5:44 pm

I think Mark means that they do not count as a single unit until the character has a chance to join them which is during/after deployment?

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Re: I'm a big Master of Deception Cheater

Post  Lore Weaver on Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:12 pm

Yessir

Edit: His only opportunity is to join them in reserves.

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Re: I'm a big Master of Deception Cheater

Post  Rhaevyn on Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:10 pm

hmm. i don't think that interpretation is any more valid than the way we were doing it before. one could say that the character joined the unit the minute you wrote their names next to each other on your army list.

I can't think of any instance where one model native to a unit would have infiltrate and not the other models in the unit. making the wording of infiltrate saying a unit containing at least one model fairly useless.

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Re: I'm a big Master of Deception Cheater

Post  Roland on Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:52 pm

Mark, I think you're overthinking this. If you put them in a land raider, could they infiltrate? If yes, why not out of it?

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Re: I'm a big Master of Deception Cheater

Post  Roland on Mon Mar 11, 2013 8:06 pm

Mark, I think you're overthinking this. If you put them in a land raider, could they infiltrate? If yes, why not out of it?

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Re: I'm a big Master of Deception Cheater

Post  Lore Weaver on Mon Mar 11, 2013 9:40 pm

Roland wrote:Mark, I think you're overthinking this. If you put them in a land raider, could they infiltrate? If yes, why not out of it?

Think of the steps for that though.

Step 1: Deploy Land Raider
Step 2: Put unit in Land Raider
Step 3: Put Character in Land Raider

The character doesn't have an opportunity to join the unit to grant them infiltrators before it's time to deploy them. Outflank, yes, because he can join the unit off the board, but infiltrate, no.

Mike, I imagine if it's somehow possible for an embedded character (Vet Sarge or something) to get infiltrate, then it would apply to the whole squad... can't think of an example off the top of my head though???

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Re: I'm a big Master of Deception Cheater

Post  Rhaevyn on Mon Mar 11, 2013 10:29 pm

landraider is dedicated transport for csm termies. theoretically, you could infiltrate at least one =)

I'm still not sold on the idea that IC's can't join units before deployment. if you can't do that, then the whole idea of joining them in reserves is in question as well. they can't be moved within 2" of the unit, because they don't exist on the tabletop yet.

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Re: I'm a big Master of Deception Cheater

Post  Roland on Mon Mar 11, 2013 11:28 pm

Where does it say you deploy units one at a time?

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Re: I'm a big Master of Deception Cheater

Post  Lore Weaver on Tue Mar 12, 2013 9:26 am

The Independent character USR states --

"An Independent Character can begin the game already with a unit,
either by being deployed in unit coherency with it or, if the unit is in
reserve) by informing your opponent of which unit it has joined."

Also, on page 121, there's no provision for a non-infiltrating unit to have an opportunity to gain infiltrating before it's time to deploy them.

You deploy, then deploy infiltrators, then scouts.

===

Doesn't bother me anyway, I'd like to try something a little different with Ahriman for a few games :-)

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Re: I'm a big Master of Deception Cheater

Post  Roland on Tue Mar 12, 2013 9:53 am

Nonono, you're misunderstanding me.

pg 121 it says "you deploy your army", not "you deploy your army, one unit at a time". You just deploy Ahriman with the unit. He has infiltrate, hence, they have infiltrate. Its all simultaneous.

To put it another way, its not specified when it happens so the player whose turn it is decides.

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Re: I'm a big Master of Deception Cheater

Post  Lore Weaver on Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:35 am

That's an excellent point. And that is how it's worded.

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Re: I'm a big Master of Deception Cheater

Post  dusktiger on Tue Mar 12, 2013 12:07 pm

yea, there's been a loonnnnng thread on the bolter and chainsword about the same thing mark when it comes to captain shrike and his infiltrate rule. after 20 something pages, and iirc, someone found something to clarify in the FAQs? that it works the way beau is explaining.

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Re: I'm a big Master of Deception Cheater

Post  Guest on Sun Mar 17, 2013 6:02 pm

I see this is 5 days old. But I was under the impression that IC guys can join a unit in your army list phase.

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Re: I'm a big Master of Deception Cheater

Post  Lore Weaver on Mon Mar 18, 2013 10:45 pm

That might be a previous edition. I don't see anything like that now.

I'm fine playing it as is, it's really a razor thin edge either way. Beau makes the argument quite well.

--

I just realized... I can use this to infiltrate up my Burning Chariot (as the Rider is "Infantry") I'm going to try a few games giving him a lesser reward and see how that goes (potentially a close-combat machine, against select targets, but at 12" + 2D6 with D6 S6 Warpflame Hammer of Wrath hits and 4 S6 AP4 attacks on the charge that blows up characters).

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Re: I'm a big Master of Deception Cheater

Post  judchic on Tue Mar 19, 2013 5:01 pm

unless its a dedicated transport that wont work.

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Re: I'm a big Master of Deception Cheater

Post  Rhaevyn on Thu Mar 21, 2013 12:48 am

any consensus either way? I'm fairly enamored of the Huron/Kharne Termies/landraider list. I've never played it yet, but i want to Smile

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Re: I'm a big Master of Deception Cheater

Post  Lore Weaver on Thu Mar 21, 2013 8:04 am

Rhaevyn wrote:any consensus either way? I'm fairly enamored of the Huron/Kharne Termies/landraider list. I've never played it yet, but i want to Smile

That'd work.

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Re: I'm a big Master of Deception Cheater

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