Moar Chaos Theory Listing

I only need two models for this, both of which I'd like regardless.... I think I'm getting to something I'd feel comfortable playing that might win some games.

HQ---

1. Chaos Sorcerer 60
Mark of Tzeench 15
Aura of Dark Glory 15
Mastery Level 3 50
Melta Bombs 5
Force Axe (free)
= 145

2. Chaos Sorcerer 60
Level 3 50
Aura of Dark Glory 15
Force Sword (free) (Maul if I can model it)
= 125

HQ Total = 270

Elites---

1. Hellbrute 100
Autocannon 5
Power Scourge 10
= 115

2. Hellbrute 100
Plasma Cannon 10
Thunder Hammer 5
= 115

Elites = 230

Troops---

1. 5xThousand Sons = 150
2. 5xThousand Sons = 150
3. 10xChaos Marines 75+65
Asp Champ Maul 15, Melta 5
2xPlasma Guns 30
Rhino 35
= 225

Troops = 525

Heavy---

1. Forgefiend 175
Hades Auto Cannons (free)
Ectoplasm Mouth 25
= 200

2. Predator 75
Heavy Bolters 20
Warpflame Gargoyles 5
= 100

3. Forgefiend 175
Hades Auto Cannons (free)
= 175

Heavy = 475

========

Additions to 1750

Elites---
1. Hellbrute 100
Multi-Melta, Power Fist

Fast Attack---
1. Chaos Spawn x 5 = 150

Revision
----

HQ---

1. Ahriman 230
2. Chaos Sorcerer 60
Mastery Level Three 50
Spell Familiar 15
Force Sword (Free)
= 125

Total = 355

Elites---

1. Hellbrute 100
Autocannon 5
Power Scourge 10
= 115

2. Hellbrute 100
Plasma Cannon 10
Thunder Hammer 5
= 115

Elites = 230

Troops---

1. 10xThousand Sons 150 + 115
Icon of Flame 10
= 275

2. 5xThousand Sons 150
3. 10xChaos Space Marines 75+65
2xPlasma Guns 30
Champ: Power Fist 25
Rhino 35
= 230

4. 10xCultists 50
8xAutoguns 8
Champion Shotgun 2
= 60

Troops = 715

Heavy---

1. Forgefiend 175
Hades Autocannons (free)
Ectoplasm Cannon 25
= 200

============

Bump to 1750
5-man Tzeentch marked Terminators ~250
or
Hellbrute 100pt | 5xChaos Spawn

============

Strategy---

As Ahriman always gets the D3 infiltration, the Rhino and dudes inside outflank. If I roll a 2 or a 3, I'll reserve my Cultists for an outflank as well, or infiltrate the big 1k sons unit.

My lvl 3 psyker grabs 3 powers from biomancy, hoping for enfeeble or endurance (either are fantastic) and thusly gives FNP to one of the thousand sons units.

Ahriman takes Psychic Scream, Doombolt or Firestorm, then grabs a biomancy power if I didn't get Endurance, and then goes for another shooty power (He can shoot 3 witchfire powers in one turn, although he doesn't get a spell familiar :-( )

Otherwise, it's a short-range shooty list. Psykers likely join the smaller 1k sons unit, but can move around as needed.

May rejigger things a bit to take the terminators over the hellbrutes, as Ahriman can join them and make them fearless. Also a good target for endurance. If Ahriman fails a psychic test and losses a wound, endurance has a shot of getting him that wound back.

Wall of Fire can potentially give a Hellbrute a 4++ save. Lots of interesting tactical things that can be done.

====

Mark, that list looks like something. Let me get this straight: I have to kill 15 guys in power armour and 10 cultists with my 1750 point army? Because I'm pretty sure I can accomplish that in 1-2 shooting phases.

Timbo wrote:Mark, that list looks like something. Let me get this straight: I have to kill 15 guys in power armour and 10 cultists with my 1750 point army? Because I'm pretty sure I can accomplish that in 1-2 shooting phases.

25 guys in power armour, and some collection of them could well have FNP. Some tanking may occur as well. I really have no idea how it'll play, I'm excited to paint some thousand sons though :-)

--

It's kinda like playing pre-codex Necrons. I'd write a list out with a bunch of Destroyers, feel pretty confident about their potential, and in 1/2 my matches, see it realized, otherwise, fail horribly.

I'd like to give it the 'ol college try at some point though. I have the models.

My bad, I missed the CSM squad. I still think it lacks shooting, but I'd be happy to test it with you.

Timbo wrote:My bad, I missed the CSM squad. I still think it lacks shooting, but I'd be happy to test it with you.

Sure thing, 1500 or 1750?

Timbo wrote:Mark, that list looks like something. Let me get this straight: I have to kill 15 guys in power armour and 10 cultists with my 1750 point army? Because I'm pretty sure I can accomplish that in 1-2 shooting phases.

I think there is enough other stuff in the list that you will have to deal with before marines.

Example?

First thing I would want to kill is the forgefiend then possibly hellbrutes or just pop the rhinos.

I'll give you the forgefiend. The helbrutes I would ignore. The rhinos go without saying. You have to wreck them to get at the squishy insides. I think that's the inherent problem with this list, and a few other chaos lists I've seen. Target priority is very easy for your opponent. This list has a single meaningful ranged threat. Once the fiend dies there is simply not enough shooting left.

Rhino outflanks, so it gets to do it's thing.

Forgefiend is a bit squishy.

Timbo wrote:I'll give you the forgefiend. The helbrutes I would ignore. The rhinos go without saying. You have to wreck them to get at the squishy insides. I think that's the inherent problem with this list, and a few other chaos lists I've seen. Target priority is very easy for your opponent. This list has a single meaningful ranged threat. Once the fiend dies there is simply not enough shooting left.

I agree with the Chaos Codex issue, having played them a few times, I always know what my priority threat is, which means trouble for my opponent.

Those Psykers all have a fair shooting threat, in Doombolt or Firestorm (S8 AP1 or SD6+1 Small Blast, extra hits), and there's 4 of them.

Ahriman can launch 3 witchfire powers per turn. Within 24" he's not so scary. 18" he's starting to get scary. 12" and he's in Psychic Scream range.

I think dropping the Helbrutes in favor of the terminators is better, so Ahriman can join the terminator unit (making them fearless) and run for a turn or two to close the distance. (Or they could just join each other and if one of them gets "Iron Arm", they're majority toughness is pretty high)

If I roll 2 or 3 on my D3 infiltrators, I can deploy some Thousand Sons relatively close, likely the doombolt guy (75% chance one'll have Doombolt) If he pops a vehicle at S8 AP1, the explosion is 2D6", not too shabby.

The issue with Fiends/outflanking rhinos:

The rhinos can't be closer than 18", ok for plasma, bad for melta. Horrible for flamers.
Fiends (and Dreads) are AV 12.

When I took my FF/Dread list vs Tim I lost 2 Rhino and 2 FF on turn 1. Tim could have easily taken one of the dreads as well. If your opponent is playing mostly ML/AC you MIGHT have a decent shot. If he is using any LasC or Heavy Ord (Griffin/Manticore/etc) you will have issues.

To be fair, I did roll pretty well on the damage table. But outflanking (as opposed to infiltrating) rhinos are not scary at all. There's a 1 in 3 it will come on where you didn't want it to and then you will either disembark and get killed, or remain in your rhino and get killed over two shooting phases.

Timbo wrote:To be fair, I did roll pretty well on the damage table. But outflanking (as opposed to infiltrating) rhinos are not scary at all. There's a 1 in 3 it will come on where you didn't want it to and then you will either disembark and get killed, or remain in your rhino and get killed over two shooting phases.

Could always infiltrate, but you'd risk coughing up First Blood.

Observations ---

- Not being able to run can cost you victory
- Outflanking Rhino is only cool on paper.
- 4/6 Biomancy Powers are amazing. 2/6 are just *average*
- Can't rely on Psychic anti-vehicle. You need more. Meltabombs are 5 points o_O
- AV12 is squishy
- 3+/4++ fearless guys can really tarpit in close combat. When there's a force sword dude in the unit ... things can happen. (Scored +1WS and Fleshbane on an Aspiring Sorcerer)
- Boon of Mutation is not very useful. You'd think you could really pump the tires up on some dude until he's a beat machine, but I was wishing I had more shooting instead (Tzeentch's Firestorm is not bad)
- Rolling for Psychic Powers when you have 1 wound left is scary. Especially when it's your warlord
- Sorcerer's have 2 wounds, not 3. (fahhhhhhh)
- Forgefiends are kinda good. 8 S8 shots at BS 3 is cool. Sometimes you get 5 hits.
- Heavy Stubbers are fun. Killed a Lascannon guy and a terminator. Paid for the unit.
- Can't rely on cultists to hold objectives. One failed LD test is bad for business.
- Model count is an issue. Moar cheap 3+ save guys, or ally in Orks? Both potential options. (Shokk & 15 Grots maybe? 95+70 = 165 pts of good shooty backfield scoring)

Ork allies proved to be very useful yesterday in a game against IG (1850pts).

I will post in my army list topic a quick bat-rep at lunch.

I've heard some talk out there about taking MSU Thousand Sons to facilitate Sorcerer spam, if you wanted to fire storm it up. And don't they have burny bolters, too?

As for cultists breaking, isn't there an icon of fearless? Failing that, a fearless IC could always be tossed into them. Or, you know, zombies. If you paired up a lot of Thousand Sons with some Nurgle stuff, it could yield you a mummy army. The soulless dead hold the points, while the phaeronic souls in power armor burn down the rest of the field with psychic might.

On the note of allies, given what other armies you have at your disposal, you could also go for Necrons. Overlord, Destrotek, and 5 Warriors in an Ark, while pricier than the grots and gun, does put a lot of shooting on the field with a big AV 13 boat you can use to grant cover to units that might be scared of AP 3 or better. Or 5 Immortals with an Overlord in a Scythe if you just want to drop a squad on top of an objective to cap (this is where Nightscythe's Deep Strike becomes AMAZING).

Planes wrote:Or 5 Immortals with an Overlord in a Scythe if you just want to drop a squad on top of an objective to cap (this is where Nightscythe's Deep Strike becomes AMAZING).

*This*

Actually, 5 warriors, Scythe Lord (45pt guy), attached overlord, and Nightscythe ~ 310ish points, and it puts a Nightscythe on the board.

After a couple games. My list is weak against AV14 and Flyers. Also, games where the Forgefiend makes it to turn 2 generally go well, games where he dies turn 1 generally go bad.

1500

HQ---

1. Ahriman 230
2. Sorcerer 60
Level 3 50
Spell Familiar 15
Aura of Dark Glory 15, Meltabombs 5
= 145

= 375

Elites---

1. Mutilatorsx2 110
Mark of Tzeentch 16
= 126

Troops---

1. 10xThousand Sons 150+115
Icon of Flame 15
Melta Bombs 5
= 285
2. 5xThousand Sons 150
3. 10xMarines 75+65
Plasma Gun 15, Lascannon 20
Champ Powerfist 25
= 200

Troops= 635

Fast Attack---

Heavy---

1. Forgefiend 175
Ectomouth 25
= 200
2. Obliteratorsx2 = 140
Mark of Tzeench 16
= 156

Heavy = 356

==================

1750

HQ---

1. Ahriman 230
2. Sorcerer 60
Level 3 50
Spell Familiar 15
Aura of Dark Glory 15, Meltabombs 5
= 145

= 375

Elites---

1. Mutilatorsx3 165
Mark of Tzeentch 24
= 189

Troops---

1. 10xThousand Sons 150+115
Icon of Flame 15
Melta Bombs 5
= 285
2. 5xThousand Sons 150
3. 10xMarines 75+65
Plasma Gun 15, Lascannon 20
Champ Powerfist 25
= 200
4. 20xCultists 50+40
15 Autoguns 15
2xHeavy Stubber 10
Champ Shotgun 2
= 117

Troops= 752

Fast Attack---

Heavy---

1. Forgefiend 175
Ectomouth 25
= 200
2. Obliteratorsx2 = 210
Mark of Tzeench 24
= 234

Heavy = 434


============================

I had an epiphany that Ahriman can make the Mutilators infiltrate, almost guaranteeing a turn 2 assault, and a threat that must be dealt with by my opponent. With a 2+/4++ and 2 wounds a piece, I like the chance of them getting to do what they do.

Obliterators will help solve my AV14 and Flyer issues (and with them on the board, maybe take some fire away from the forgefiend)

I've dropped the Hellbrutes for now. I think the plasma cannon guy might still be worthwhile. I've been extremely pleased with the performance of the Thousand Sons, but I just don't have enough threats on the board right now.

10 man unit with a lascannon and plasma gun has been great for backfield objective camping, and that lascannon, plasma gun combo can be efficient.

Ahriman has performed badly only once (insta-gibbed by Tom's Doomscythe, failed a look-out-sir roll and a 4++ save :-( ) Other than that, he's been average to amazing. 3 witchfire powers... so good. Also, guaranteeing the infiltrate warlord trait has been nice.

My Sorcerer has been average to good every game as well. He's gotten Warp Speed every single game I've played, which has been interesting. Spell familiar has helped, but I've only needed to re-roll twice, neither of those being a "12". I've noticed though, that the psychic abilities of Ahriman and the Sorcerer have become a bit of a crutch. You also need to be close to really unleash, with many witchfire powers at 12" range, several at 18" range, and very few at 24" range. Ahriman can be anywhere from S6-S10 in close combat though, depending on what powers he generates, and goes at initiative with his attacks, makes for some scary dice rolls for my opponents.

==

Turning into a spawn sucks.

==

Anyway, do you guys think Obliterators and Mutilators solve my threat issues?

Other things I've looked at:
- Bikes with 2xMelta -- 90pts
- Raptros with 2xMelta or 1xMelta 1xPlasma -- 115 or 120
- Warptalons with Mark of Tzeentch 190 (3+/4++)
- Possessed with Mark of Tzeentch 175ish (I think?) (3+/4++)
- Drop the Sorcerer, have a Lord with an Axe walk 35 close-combat cultists up the board

???

I think Bikers or Raptors would make for a more effective in your face threat than Mutilators. While the 4++ is great, the other two have superior mobility to help assure that turn 2 charge, and both squads come with guns to allow them to do something turn one other than just running. Bikers give you T5 for more resilience that way, and MoN would kick that up to T6. Raptors, on the other hand, simply start out with more wounds at their disposal than either the Bikers or the Mutilators, and they are able to simply jump move over terrain they don't like, and then they can walk turn two to deliver a Hammer of Wrath charge with a reroll on the distance. I'm thinking that a Flamer and a Melta would be a good mix for the Raptors, as with their mobility combined with the infiltration you should be able to make good on both Melta and Flamer range, and you'd have the right tools for ripping into a horde or a parking lot.

A flamer isn't a tool I need though. My issues are AV14, Flyers, and Threat Overload.

The Tzeentchy units can deal with swarms of dudes on the ground with firestorm and AP3 bolters.

Mutilators can deploy 18" from an AV14 vehicle and force it to move around the board. (that and there's rumours of a Mutilator/Oblitorator plastic kit coming out soon-ish)

Obliterators could either infiltrate or deepstrike, depending on what I'm facing, allowing them to get good positioning to either take out a flyer or an armoured threat. Both of these units would require shooting to kill, and with 2+/4++ and 2 wounds each, would be fairly resilient.

The raptors are nice because they're cheap and mobile. They'd need to deepstrike to fit the gap I need though. Bikes would either need to outflank or turbo-boost on turn one to do the job I need, and I'd likely need another bike to soak up a wound so I don't lose melta guns.

The big cultist tar-pit is interesting, because the champion can accept the challenges while the lord can lay the beats with a power-axe. It's not easy putting 30+ wounds on a unit, especially if you can snag a cover save (or if Ahriman gets Endurance or Fire Shield).

I think the big problem with my early lists is that I'm counting on the Forgefiend to do a lot of things, and when he dies early in the game, I'm left saying to myself, "I have no answer for that"

You don't have to Deep Strike/Turbo Boost/Out Flank, though, that's the beauty of it. You Infiltrate Ahriman (Unit Type: Infantry(Character)), and attach the Bikers or Raptors to him, splashing the Infiltrate onto them. If you get a 2 or higher on your d3, Ahriman uses his turn one move to leave the fast attack and join a squad of Thousand Sons, while the fast attack blasts forward and says "Hello! Deal with us now please!"

Planes wrote:You don't have to Deep Strike/Turbo Boost/Out Flank, though, that's the beauty of it. You Infiltrate Ahriman (Unit Type: Infantry(Character)), and attach the Bikers or Raptors to him, splashing the Infiltrate onto them. If you get a 2 or higher on your d3, Ahriman uses his turn one move to leave the fast attack and join a squad of Thousand Sons, while the fast attack blasts forward and says "Hello! Deal with us now please!"

I'd only ever plan to get a "1" and a "2" or a "3" would just be a bonus. The idea has merit though, infiltrate the bikes (likely bikes, in this case) as they can move 12 and shoot melta. They won't be within 6" of anything, unless I can hide them behind something.

I like the idea of infiltrated bikes. Or even a large unit of Raptors. anything with melta. Dont really need flamers, both of those units are going to charge into horde armies and smash faces.

The downfall of tzeenchian armies is that you end up giving things the MoT...


I've often thought of maybe doing an Abbadon army and surround him with three max units of obliterators. Preferred enemy on shooting marines is good i think.
just put him in the middle of the table, 24in from your opponent, and walk him up the table. probably give him a unit of cultists or csm to provide some LOS rolls and scoring. Could also do 10 man double plasma gun squads as well and keep them within 12" of him.

i call it the "A-bad-foot army! "