Death Ray !

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Re: Death Ray !

Post  Guest on Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:22 pm

So, Saskatoon 6th ed House Rules:

#1) Flamers can only wound models in flamer range

#2) Death ray can't target into combat

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Re: Death Ray !

Post  System Commander on Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:35 pm

Oh, I'm not making the Death Ray a league rule yet by any means. We havent heard from any Necron players yet.

The flamer template isn't a league rule, thats a rule from the the new Faq gw released for the main rulebook.

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Re: Death Ray !

Post  Planes on Fri Jan 25, 2013 11:22 pm

Thus far whenever I've shot the Death Ray into the midst of a melee, I have been rather fortunate that it was only the first or second round of combat, so the initial lines were still more or less intact, giving me the chance to rip through the enemy without having to worry about clipping my own guys. Longer combats, such as tar pits provided by Scarabs and the like, are more likely to mix the units into weird curves, making it much harder to do long, clean swaths of the enemy in a single shot. This forces a choice upon the player: do I get 2-3 dudes on the edge of combat, who may not be all that vital to the conflict, or do I plow right through my own force and try to kill the enemy Champion/HQ and hope enough of my guys get back up in time for the Assault phase.

However, beyond that, there are some other considerations to take, straight out of the Codex itself.

Codex: Necrons, page 50 wrote:To fire the Death Ray, nominate a point on the battlefield anywhere within the weapon's range, then nominate a second point within 3d6" of the first. Then draw a straight line between the two points. Every unit (friendly or enemy) underneath the line suffers a number of hits equal to the number of models in the unit underneath the line. If the vehicle's other weaponry is fired in the same shooting phase, it must be fired at one of the units hit by the Death Ray.

As worded, the Death Ray isn't required to target anything. This puts it's firing into quite a different sort from traditional weapons (I want to kill him, roll BS to hit), as well as Blasts (must be placed on a target, then scatter) or Templates (must be placed on a target). RAW, if I just wanted to boil that river over there, even with no one in it, I can. The large portion of the power this weapon brings to the field is it's sheer indifference it has about what it is used upon. The other important bit of wording in there is the whole line about "other weaponry". If the Death Ray is used to cut a swath through a melee and fails to connect with an unengaged enemy unit, the Twin Linked Tesla Destructor is turned off for that turn, as it is restricted by traditional firing rules.

Do note, however, that the Tesla Destructor (used by the Night Scythe and Annihilation Barge as well) is specifically able to harm those in melee as well, though with far less finesse.

Codex: Necrons, page 82 wrote:Arc: Once the Tesla Destructor's initial shot has been resolved, roll a d6 for each other unit (friendly or enemy, engaged and unengaged) within 6" of the target. If you roll a 6, that unit suffers d6 automatic Strength 5, AP -- hits.

With how Arc is currently FAQ'd, I can shoot any TLTD at a target 6" away from the edge of melee, but 7+" from my forces currently engaged in said melee, and the Arc will hit the members of the enemy squad closest to the weapon, not the initial target, giving the Necron player control of where those Str 5 wounds are applied when the dice rolling jankiness of a 6+ favors them.

As worded the Death Ray is able to shoot as it pleases, so long as evasive maneuvers have not been invoked. The Codex also has precedence of shooting attacks being able to inflict damage upon engaged units by means other than scattering, and with the shooting player able to control where those hits will roll into said engaged units.

Hopefully GW gets off their butts and addresses this in an FAQ soon, as I would love to simply going back to going "brzzzzzt-boom!" with the Ray without having to argue about it.

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Re: Death Ray !

Post  System Commander on Sat Jan 26, 2013 12:16 am

I know the arguments, and you lay them out well. I personally still don't think it should be allowed to go through CC. When we played, both times it fired the beam started on a model already engaged in CC and then fired off in such a way it wouldn't harm your guys. The Death ray isnt ever going to hit your stuff because you can position it so it won't.. it's just that simple.

I dont know, it seems odd to me. They should of faq'd it by now is what the problem is. You bring in a weapon that has different rules than every other gun in the game and just let if float there when people are having problems with it.



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Re: Death Ray !

Post  Guest on Sat Jan 26, 2013 12:17 am

the rules are almost 100% you can shoot into combat from what I hear.

So RAW, from moment 1 where I read the death rules how ever many months ago, I though about shooting into melee. RAI are very blurry because it mentions hitting allied dudes.

The issue is that it feels OP and out of phase with standard 40k rules. If Your unit is in a line, anyone who charges you will be in a line. When your Death Scythe shows up it will then have a perfect shot to wipe half the enemy squad out of combat with almost zero chance to hurt your own dudes.

If we look for precedence in this matter, there are a few comparisons.

1) Back in the Daemonhunters Codex, it was agreed that Vindicaire Assassins could ignore targeting procedure and blast dudes out of melee combat.

2) Any blast weapon cannot target melee, but if it happens to scatter over into melee we allocate hits to models under the template.

3) Some weapons specifically go off in melee. Like Prince Yriel and Typhus who can explode with a large blast on their head as a special move. Also Tyranid spore mines and the Tau fail-safe detonator who suicide bomb and place templates in melee. Similarily, the character with the super fancy chair in Grey Knights can target his orbital strike relay onto a friendly model in melee, effectively making him a suicide bomb beacon.

4) Hit n Run USR, Callidus Assassin special disengage, Skyleap swooping hawk power. All of these have a unit leave melee making the enemy squad now vulnerable to shooting.

For the vindicaire, we have humanity's AAA marksmen, so people agreed he could break the rules. For the bombardment, it is collateral damage and is therefore not accurate or consistent. For characters who explode, as well as suicide bombers there is a large blast centered on a friendly model. We are therefore more likely to hit allies, although this is not always the case. The 4th case, combat has ceased, and the enemy is allowed a consolidate move to grab a piece of cover or at least to de-clump.

Aside from teh vindicaire, all of these other ones either are random, centered on an ally, or are after combat and the enemy has consolidated.

The death ray is place anywhere 36" from teh board edge, doesnt scatter, hits multiple targets, can easily avoid hitting allies by strategic unit placement and pile in moves, and slams the opponent without any chance to consolidate or de-clump.

So its like the vindicaire, but rather than a single immobile shot per turn, it is a highly mobile line attack that can wipe a unit straight out of melee

RAW its legit, RAI is plausibly legit. Game wise, its like a super duper vindicare assassin

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Re: Death Ray !

Post  dusktiger on Sat Jan 26, 2013 12:27 am

its just as easy to just ban the unit all together from playing in saskatoon. there was a point everyone was boycotting the lucius dread pod for what it could do. since then it has since been made 30% more expensive and adds a dangerous terrain test on the dread if it wishes to get out and assault anything the turn it arrives. but it scared people enough that they refused to play against it.

lets ban it, its gun is annoying. while we're at it, lets ban jaws of the world wolf. its scary and stupid. and plague marines. toughness 5 and FNP? udder bunk. get rid of them. thunderfire cannons? too many templates for 100pts. banned. dark eldar and their flicker fields? bogus. ban it. bllod angels and their FNP bubbles? OP. ban it. every grey knight's melee weapon is a power weapon? never again, ban it.

none of us are game designers for GW. and none of us are collecting a paycheck from GW. so it's not our place to yae or nae what units they come up with for the 40k universe, just because they dont fit in with our personal preferences and play style. no matter what codex or expansion book, GW actual or FW based, so long as it does not have the words "experimental" plastered across the page, we as gamers playing 'their' product have to accept its a legal playable unit. whether its the doom scythe, a lucius pod, eldrad, farsight, or any number of other units, doesn't matter. they made it, and if they say its a legal playable unit in 40k-level games, then you have to accept that and go along for the ride. anything less, and you might as well start a new game system.

not that im harping on your or anything robyn; whenever i face a doom scythe i find the bugger a pain in my royal ass. same with Njal and JotWW. it's just that the fact of the matter is, it's there, its not going anywhere, so we have to deal with it and just adjust our gaming strategies to compensate for it when we see it.

and besides, is it in any way fair for us to make a house rule that restricts or nerfs how a unit plays in the game? its not really fair to tom or mark, or ben, paz, and the other necron owners to have people who dont even own a necron model to say "we dont like how this unit in your book works, so we're making a rule that says it cant do this anymore." what if they think unlocking cult units as troops from the chaos codex is crap and want a house rule to prevent that? you, and mike, and a half dozen others in town would probably be pissed, wouldn't you?

if it was something out of the primary Rule Book, which effects 'everybody', no matter their army, then a house rule is appropriate. such as trying to change how deployment or what have you is done (changing the angled deployment to the quartered deployment to make things go faster, for example). but if its something to nerf a specific model from a specific army, then that's not fair to those that play that army.

thats just my opinion. is the death ray annoying and would i prefer they never made a gun like that? yes. do i think its fair to tell all the necron players here its now nerfed and plays the following way? no.

with all that said, since it seems less than coincidence this thread was necromancied just before the team tournament, beau and i could always put it to a vote before the tournament starts if someone brings a doom scythe as to whether it'll be allowed to shoot and affect units in melee, or just magically ignores them and just hits the stuff around them.

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Re: Death Ray !

Post  System Commander on Sat Jan 26, 2013 12:45 am

You guys are missing the point 100%.. maybe by 1000%.

I haven't introduced anything, I havent nerfed anything. I haven't banned anything or even suggested it. I've never done that so I take a measure of offense you think I'm bitching about something and want to rule it out of the game. I'm hoping to discuss it more. Who ever banned Lucius drop pods?

Str, ap1, flyer, etc. I'm not questioing that, I'm not bitching or whining about it at all. I'm wondering about the ability that some believe it can fire into combat. There are arguments for, and aguments against. Precedence for, and precedence against. I'm wondering what people think.. THINK! And of course discuss.

Yikes.. talk about off topic. Mike.. you didnt even talk about the actual thing I want to discuss. You just vented on changing rules that GW has put forth.. which no one is doing. I'm not worried about it at the tournament. Im not really worried in general. I came across it again on some threads.. hard not to these days.. and wanted to start a discussion here. I probably wouldn't of blinked twice about it, but I know Tom likes to use it a sniper weapon, with the line starting in CC and nothing else does that in the game.. it's worth discussing.

Adam.. how is the Vindicare a comparison? He's the same as Telion and even a character using precision strikes. He gets to assign the wound.. although in the new FAQ they clarified you dont get LOS against it whch you shouldnt. I've still never seen anyone use him yet.



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Re: Death Ray !

Post  Rhaevyn on Sat Jan 26, 2013 1:26 am

hey. technically it never hits anything, because it hits everything below an invisible line that is on the table. ... all the models on the table would be above that line.

seriously though. its just a really powerful weapon that ignores all the rules in a Ward codex known for completely ignoring rules. the game has been full of these things since inception. Couple of years ago, lash was stupid. Grey knights are still stupid. Wolves have JOWW which is fairly ridiculous. We just don't see too many wolves on the table lately.

Hopefully it gets better as more 'dexes get replaced. its unfortunate that we are going to have to deal Ward's Legacy for a few years yet. The only light at the end of the tunnel is the rumors that GW is pushing for a codex a month for 2013... and then focusing on other revenue streams, White dwarf content, allies only units, etc.


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Re: Death Ray !

Post  Planes on Sat Jan 26, 2013 8:30 am

To the best of my knowledge, I only really know of three Necron players in town, and of them I think I'm the only one who fields the Death Croissant on any kind of a regular basis. I have to say, though, a 175 point investment, that doesn't show up until turn 2 at the earliest, it does a great job at shoring up a major Codex: Necrons weakness: Assault with anything other than Wraiths/Destroyer Lords.

In case anyone was concerned with today's fielding at the Tourney, though, I was going to be fielding Knights and lending Matty a Footy Cron list, with not a flier in sight. I doubt there will be any Death Rays scotching the ground today.

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Re: Death Ray !

Post  Aegwymourn on Sat Jan 26, 2013 9:10 am

I am torn on this issue since RAW (provided at length by Planes) would indicate that you can indeed use the death ray to target models in CC. However I remember all the old GW phrases describing melee and the battle in general as a swirling vortex where you models were "best estimates" of their location. Since it is impossible to have any kind of "balanced" play without a my turn, your turn system of some sort. But it was important to remember that "in reality" the models were constantly moving even during your opponents turn. I will admit that is a lot of basically "fluff" from previous editions but it really hit a cord with how the game was supposed to be played and why they ruled out things like shooting into close combat. From your general point of view it might look like a perfect shot, but it would be impossible for an actual soldier to accomplish it in the tornado of battle.

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Re: Death Ray !

Post  Rhaevyn on Sat Jan 26, 2013 12:00 pm

I dont think anyone is asking anyone to ban the death ray. I'm fairly certain that all Robyn is asking for is a discussion on weather or not it should be able to affect close combat.

I'm with him on this one. and not just for the death ray. For any shooting ability that can affect models locked in close combat. Close combat is safety for melee characters, its the one place in 40k where all those entries dedicated to it can hide from getting shot up.

And tom.... If anyone buys the "death ray shooting into combat/severing combat makes up for codex close combat shortfalls" argument, I'll hire you as a salesman. i have some snakeoil i need to move Smile

5 str/tgh HQ's /Mindshackles/warscythes and the aforementioned wraiths/lords. I don't think the necron codex is hurting for close combat options. True nobody is scared of warriors on foot. but neither is anyone afraid of CSM or tacticals either.

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Re: Death Ray !

Post  Guest on Sun Jan 27, 2013 2:19 am

RE: Vindicaire

on the Daemonhunters codex (my book seems to be copyright 2003 and I believe it was valid up till codex:Grey Knights) Vindicaire assassins had the Marksman ability

Marksman: You man nominate the model targeted by the Vindicaire Assassin when he is shooting, such as a Sergeant or a heavy weapon trooper. This means you get to choose which model is taken off, not the enemy. In addition, the Vindicaire can target any model in range and line of sight, regardless of any targeting restrictions (such as independent characters within 6" of another unit).

Although this is outdated been updated, in the past, it was interpreted that firing into melee was a targeting restriction that the Vindicaire could ignore. This is for a 110 point model who also still needs a 4+ to wound.


Also I would agree that this is not about banning the death ray, it is about shooting into melee.

Other weird abilities that questionably affected melee that I can recall are Mind War and Lash of Submission and Gift of Chaos/Boon of Chaos. Mind War and Gift/Boon have been clarified as shooting attacks that follow normal shooting rules. Lash had a long set of FAQ's about the can and can'ts: part of which was no moving units from melee.


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Re: Death Ray !

Post  Roland on Sun Jan 27, 2013 12:17 pm

Mike B: I agree 100%. Anyway you try to "fix" it, would involve a complete change to its mechanics.

Re: Vindicare. While I understand the intent, your basis was written for 3 editions ago...

Re: banning units/FW: while I understand your arguments, and even agree with some of them, it's off topic and derailing the discussion. That topic is broad enough to warrant it's own thread:)

A few questions: does either point have to be in its forward arc? Can the line extend behind it? Would targets in CC get cover save since their is a good chance the necron models are covering at least 25%?

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Re: Death Ray !

Post  judchic on Sun Jan 27, 2013 12:24 pm

I agree. Nothing else can shoot into close combat and until someone can explain how a gun kills someone in close combat without shooting I don't think it should work.

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Re: Death Ray !

Post  superdeuxlol on Sun Jan 27, 2013 3:34 pm

I feel as though it acts like a template weapon, ie that if I target a model (or in this case a point) and it happens to hit other models in another unit that is in cc, those wounds will still be allocated to the unit in cc. If not, then why would a large blast template weapon be able to hit a set of models in cc while targeting those in just behind it (say for example targeting a set of Lootaz, scoring a direct hit, but splashing over and hitting 10 boyz in CC)? Especially if "combat is a swirling melee. and positions ebb and flow, which is why you don't shoot into combat, you can hit your friends" as people seem to suggest. If we were to make the shot illegal if it did hit units in cc, then would it be an illegal shot for blast or flamer template weapons as well if they hit units in cc? The fact that models are in a nice straight line for it to hit is just inherent to the game. That is how I see it anyhow. Also not picking on Rhaevyn, he just put it the best as to why weapons hitting melee from a fluff standpoint could end up in friendly casualties. I would accept the line of doom ripping up my CC just like I accept a blast template doing the same even if one can do it with precision while the other might scatter.

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Re: Death Ray !

Post  Planes on Sun Jan 27, 2013 3:58 pm

The big sticking point that it keeps coming down to, though, Superdeuxlol, is that a flamer can never hit a melee once it is engaged (invalid target) and that the blast can only go into the melee if you're really lucky (2/3 chance to scatter, 1/6-1/8 chance to go in the needed direction, chance to land in it depends on how far away the target is from the melee). Arcing from a TWTD is more likely, because fewer conditions have to be satisfied to strike, and are easier to control/account for (is primary target within 6" of secondary, 1/6 chance to Arc, d6 hits inflicted). The Death Ray is brought into contention by virtue of the fact that it ignores all targeting restrictions in that you are not targeting anything. A flamer needs to shoot at something, where the Death Ray, in essence, is the Doom Scythe pilot putzing around in Google Maps in a very violent manner.

Everything boils down to this:

99% of guns in 40k: These are the rules. Learn them, Love them, Live them.
The Death Ray: Yeah, I'll get back to you on that.

The only kind of weapon that shares any kind of issue of operation with the Death Ray, aside from the Staff of the Destroyer, are Torrent Weapons, with the whole "start the attack somewhere within 12" of you and pick a direction for it". From what I've been hearing with Torrent being an issue is the whole "I place the template in the front right corner of my range and aim it to the right", with the counter argument being "anything that template hits outside of that cone of range the weapon 'can't see' and thus can't kill". The Heldrake recently got FAQ'd to have that problem removed by having it's weapon "treated as turret mounted weapon, measuring all distances from the edge of the Heldrake's base". Should GW release an FAQ statement for the Death Ray along those lines, then it can go back to shooting backwards as it flies along again.

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Re: Death Ray !

Post  Lore Weaver on Sun Jan 27, 2013 8:16 pm

If it treated combat like a single unit, killing the closest models, friend or foe, when it comes time to remove casualties.

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Re: Death Ray !

Post  Planes on Mon Jan 28, 2013 6:19 pm

I would be 100% cool with that.

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Re: Death Ray !

Post  Rhaevyn on Mon Jan 28, 2013 8:51 pm

Wait. Closest models to what?

The scythe.
The line.
The start of the line.?

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Re: Death Ray !

Post  Roland on Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:05 pm

This is what I've been asking. Is it treated like a frag missile, like a Ord blast, or like a flamer template. If it's treated like a frag, you still get cover and wound allocation as normal.

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Re: Death Ray !

Post  Planes on Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:22 pm

Nothing in it's wording changes wound allocation, so that much at least would be as normal: closest to furthest from the firing model. Isn't it only ordinance/barage that wounds from the middle of the pie plate (which, in turn, would require a pie plate to be used)?

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Re: Death Ray !

Post  Lore Weaver on Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:23 pm

Closest to the Scythe, and in line within a 45 degree arc from the turret.

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Re: Death Ray !

Post  Planes on Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:29 pm

Until GW releases an FAQ that utterly invalidates everything discussed here.

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Re: Death Ray !

Post  Roland on Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:26 pm

Ok I just grabbed my codex and reread the Death Ray rules... and the FAQ.

All hits are resolved on the UNIT, so closest model, etc. are viable, you can't use it to snipe (unless the dude is on his own). I haven't seen anything that would indicate it voids cover, or can hit models not in LOS etc (That rule is a whole other debate, Hive Guard/Astral Aim).

The over all effect (can't target flyers, etc.) sounds an AWFUL lot like a Flamer Torrent.... but it obviously not.

I fired off a email to GW. I'm sure they will answer some question about whether Left handed bolters are legal instead....


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Re: Death Ray !

Post  Planes on Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:35 pm

Oh god, I just modeled one of my Plasma Plague Marines as a South Paw, god help us all!

The only "sniping" I've truly done with the Ray to date was starting it on a Nurgle Sorcerer in melee with some Warriors and aiming it out of the conflict. Aside from that, I've just generally had priority targets on the side of the combat closest to the melee, or I'm shooting tanks. That, or I'm fighting Tom M. and he has 10 Fire Warriors base to base in a line along his table edge...

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Re: Death Ray !

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