Kharn

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Kharn

Post  Timbo on Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:14 pm

Kharn cannot reroll any 1s to hit in close combat (for hatred) because these are not misses. These are hits against his own side. Even if Kharn is in a challenge his spasmadic lashings can hit other members of his unit. The only time he would get to reroll would be if he was going solo.

I know we have some local Kharn users so these clarifications should come in handy.

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Re: Kharn

Post  judchic on Tue Nov 27, 2012 1:58 pm

the order is roll to hit then discard misses normally. Kharn replaces the discard part with hits his own guys. Or at least how I read it. Doesn't make sense they would give him such a terrible rule otherwise.

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Re: Kharn

Post  System Commander on Tue Nov 27, 2012 2:59 pm

It makes sense when you think about.. Just really didnt clue in before that 1's were still hits.. Just against his dudes.

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Re: Kharn

Post  UglyDuckling on Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:10 pm

I feel like this is going to far towards rules as written and losing sight of the spirit of the game completely. Its not an upgrade or some sort of special buff that is giving him hatred it is his own specified warlord trait.

As far as I see it on the first round of a combat Kharn gets to re-roll his 1's and any subsequent 1's will be considered to hit his own guys.

His rules state "any unmodified rolls of 1 are not discarded. Instead they automatically hit a friendly."
If you do want to jump into the rules as written I would say determining these friendly hits is determined after all aspects of rolling to hit at the same time as you would normally discard.

Myself and everyone else I have ever played with roll, determine hits, re-roll, determine hits and then discard.

So roll, determine hits, re-roll, determine hits, any unmodified rolls of 1 automatically hit a friendly.

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Re: Kharn

Post  Timbo on Tue Nov 27, 2012 7:49 pm

A hit is a hit. Hatred lets you reroll misses. If you reroll Kharn's 1s in the first round of combat you're doing it wrong. You can choose to do it wrong by mutual assent, but just be aware it's wrong.

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Re: Kharn

Post  judchic on Tue Nov 27, 2012 8:32 pm

unfortunately it can be read either way really easily.
my logic is because it says instead of being discarded (when you normally miss) it hits an ally instead, that it still counts as a miss for re rolling.
specifically because a re roll happens before the die is discarded.
and when there are 2 valid arguments, don't call people wrong for not seeing it your way.

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Re: Kharn

Post  System Commander on Tue Nov 27, 2012 9:00 pm

Well.. In last 2 editions he hit comrades on a 1.. No rerolls... He s always been meant to take out his own guys if your brave eniugh to attach him to one. Thus edition though.. Those attached guys get hatred, a massive buff at the small expense of losing a few guys.

I.think if you truly look at the spirit of the rules, hes meant to take some dudes out, so rolls of a 1 are against his allies.. No hatred reroll, kharn hates everyone!

And.. I use kharn alot so Im really pulling for him to get faq'd so he can reroll those.. But as written he doesntseem to get the rerolls right now.

But this one is really on the fence. I really dont think its fair to say this is a written vs
spirit debate.. To me the spirit would to kill his own guys.

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Re: Kharn

Post  judchic on Tue Nov 27, 2012 9:06 pm

the momentum of the charge makes it REALLY hard for him to turn and whack one of his guys...?

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Re: Kharn

Post  UglyDuckling on Tue Nov 27, 2012 9:11 pm

Still take re-rolls but count ALL of the 1's against the squad?

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Re: Kharn

Post  judchic on Tue Nov 27, 2012 9:16 pm

now a funny question, weapons with the force quality cannot inflict instant death on kharn. does this mean force weapons at str8+ cant double him out? doubling out counts as instant death...

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Re: Kharn

Post  Lore Weaver on Tue Nov 27, 2012 9:17 pm

I would say, "yes", as it's the strength that's doubling him out, not the psychic.

The only time I can imagine this being an issue is a Fire Aura'd (or whatever that power is called) dude with a Power Maul. (+2S, +2S, on S4)

Edit: Or if Kharn faces a power maul while inflicted with Enfeeble. (Although, he'd have to roll a "1" on his deny-the-witch roll)

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Re: Kharn

Post  Roland on Tue Nov 27, 2012 10:50 pm

Player 1: I'm playing Kharn. Whats your take on Hatred and his 1's? I think he get the reroll.
Player 2: I think they are hits.
Player 1: Dice off?
Player 2: Sure.

There I fixed it:)

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Re: Kharn

Post  UglyDuckling on Tue Nov 27, 2012 10:51 pm

I saw a discussion on the double strength force weapon on Dakka Dakka. The best answer was that you don't activate the force weapon until after you inflict a wound. Splat! Kharn is dead before you even need to roll for a psychic test.

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Re: Kharn

Post  Timbo on Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:29 pm

judchic wrote:my logic is because it says instead of being discarded (when you normally miss) it hits an ally instead, that it still counts as a miss for re rolling.
and when there are 2 valid arguments, don't call people wrong for not seeing it your way.

So you're saying a hit counts as a miss. I don't see that as logical or a valid argument.

I call people wrong for not seeing things my way all the time. You should be used to it by now.

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Re: Kharn

Post  Roland on Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:43 pm

I believe the thinking is "misses are resolved as if they were hits against his own squad"

Kharn is a weird character, he is GUARANTEED to hit with every attack.... he just isnt very picky about who he hits.

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Re: Kharn

Post  Planes on Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:08 pm

Well, lets break out the books and rip into the semantics of the situation.

6th Edition, page 24 wrote:Rolling To Hit

To determine whether hits are scored, roll a D6 for each attack a model gets to make and compare the WS of the attacking model with the WS of the target unit. Then, consult the To Hit chart on this page to find the minimum result needed on a D6 To Hit.

Now, while it is true that Gorechild's special effect makes referencing the To Hit chart on page 24 of the BRB moot, an item of note in this entry is that it only bothers to define what constitutes a hit, and not what constitutes a miss. A quick check on the BRB errata also shows that this has yet to be addressed there, as well.

Codex: Chaos Space Marines, page 59 wrote:The Betrayer:
When rolling To Hit with Kharn's melee attacks, any unmodified rolls of a 1 are not discarded. Instead, they automaticly hit a friendly model (but not Kharn) locked in the same combat. Randomly determine (for each roll of a 1) which model is hit, from those within 6" of Kharn. If there are no viable targets in range, these Attacks are discarded.

Now, it seems that between these two entries that a Miss is a "discarded To Hit roll", but that is something that we have inferred rather than explicitly said. "The Betrayer", however, says that it stops those rolls from being discarded. This would seem to indicate that "The Betrayer" is meant to interrupt the order of operations of typical melee, similar to how Gorechild does in that you still have to roll to hit against a target with WS 0.

This, in the end, all comes down to what a "Miss" is defined as. Should it be worded as "a roll To Hit that is discarded", then "The Betrayer" interrupts this process, only allowing for Hatred rolls should Kharn be solo. However, if a "Miss" is judged to be only a roll To Hit less than the number required by the chart on page 24, then Hatred *should* click in before "The Betrayer".

A final note on this, however, would be that these are two triggers going off at the same time, with no clear priority over one-another. If the roll of 1 is taken as a "miss", and a roll of 1 is also the trigger for "The Betrayer", the active player should be able to determine the order of resolution of said triggers. Thusly, that would make Kharn hit even more than usual on the charge, benefiting from Hatred, but would never benefit from it when being charged, much the same as the oft talked about Mindshackel Scarabs.

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Re: Kharn

Post  Rhaevyn on Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:17 pm

Kharne never misses. Smile the blood god cares not from where the blood flows.

hatred has no affect on hatred incarnate!

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Re: Kharn

Post  Timbo on Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:42 am

Tom you're wrong, Mike you're right.

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Re: Kharn

Post  Guest on Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:02 pm

so twin linked plasma guns should also overheat when you re-roll 1's

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Re: Kharn

Post  Timbo on Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:41 pm

Not sure I follow your logic. A roll of 1 with shooting is a miss. A roll of 1 with Kharn is a hit - on his own side.

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Re: Kharn

Post  Guest on Sat Dec 01, 2012 5:58 pm

so if your chopping wood, and you swing and miss the log, but hit your foot, you call that a Hit?

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Re: Kharn

Post  Rhaevyn on Sat Dec 01, 2012 6:23 pm

canadin wrote:so if your chopping wood, and you swing and miss the log, but hit your foot, you call that a Hit?

Exactly.

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Re: Kharn

Post  Roland on Sat Dec 01, 2012 7:17 pm

I get where you are going on the plasma gun with enroll vs kharn but...

A 1 on a plasma gun is not a "hit". There is no roll to wound, it's not ap2.

When kharn rolls a 1, it's a hit on a friendly. In frank terms we are realistically talking about 1 dead buddy a round. If this is a big deal, see my solution above.

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Re: Kharn

Post  dusktiger on Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:02 pm

as i understand it, this is how Kharn works:
if kharn is attached to a squad when he goes into melee, he never misses; 2+ results hit the opposed squad, results of 1 hit allies. if Kharn is attacking a squad in melee by himself, then he can use Hatred to re-roll 1's.

and to add an extra step just to be clear, if Kharn is within 3" of a friendly squad after movement is done, he's considered attached automatically. so having him split from a squad he's running with for the assault doesn't count, because he will be considered auto-attached again after assault movements are made.

if you hate the 1 results, dont use a character who's a psychopathic axe-swinging serial killer and go get yourself another guy; Chaos has a surgery fetishist, a masochist, a dress wearing wizard, a Machiavelli space pirate, fat kid with a skin problem, and the 2nd choice for grand leader.

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Re: Kharn

Post  Lore Weaver on Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:14 pm

An independent character can only join or leave a unit during the movement phase.

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Re: Kharn

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