5th to 6th....

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Re: 5th to 6th....

Post  Lore Weaver on Sat Nov 10, 2012 6:23 pm

Timbo wrote:I agree Mark, although I still don't think the FF is worth the points either. It's not as glaringly awful as the defiler though.

I would call it "balanced".

AV12 with a 5++ save is almost as good as AV13 though...

But to your point above, it's random, and not consistent and reliable.

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Re: 5th to 6th....

Post  Timbo on Sat Nov 10, 2012 6:43 pm

I'm not sure I agree. Every point of AV is a quantum leap in toughness because it completely excludes a certain strength level of weapons from affecting it. I see the point you're making though, there is definitely a tradeoff. But I think GW has overvalued the merit of a 5++, especially when cover is readily available.

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Re: 5th to 6th....

Post  Lore Weaver on Sat Nov 10, 2012 8:14 pm

True, but the 5++ is available against close-combat attacks too, and on a 5+ at the end of the turn, it gets some hull points back.

I see your point too though, with AV 12, I'm relying on a turn 1 or turn 2 5+ save against a pen for the fiend to have a chance to make it's points. It's also a very tasty target due to it's high value.

If Chaos had a threat overload to balance it out, 2-3 forgefiends would work, but as it stands, I don't think that's available. A player can only have 3 units of bikes and three 3-man terminator squads.

On the flip-side, I'm coming around to tasty-taste's tactics bit on Hellbrutes...

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Re: 5th to 6th....

Post  Timbo on Sun Nov 11, 2012 1:21 am

Keep in mind that Tasty Taste is a blogger, not a player. Taking any list building or strategy advice from him is dubious at best. I do like the psychoman dreadnought configuration (missile launcher, reaper a/c). The lack of smoke launchers and searchlights on the helbrutes is puzzling. What happens to them?

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Re: 5th to 6th....

Post  Lore Weaver on Sun Nov 11, 2012 9:25 am

Hellbrute only gets extra shots on a 1 on a D3


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Re: 5th to 6th....

Post  Roland on Sun Nov 11, 2012 2:07 pm

I'm not sure if this is hella good or terri-bad......

2000 Pts - Chaos Space Marines Roster

Total Roster Cost: 1997

HQ: Huron Blackheart (1#, 160 pts)
1 Huron Blackheart, 160 pts

HQ: Sorcerer (1#, 115 pts)
1 Sorcerer, 115 pts = (base cost 60 + Mark of Tzeentch 15 + Increase Mastery Level x1 25 + Aura of Dark Glory 15)

Troops: Chaos Space Marines (9#, 188 pts)
7 Chaos Space Marines, 110 pts = 7 * 13 (base cost 13) + Close Combat Weapon x7 14 + Flamer 5
1 Aspiring Champion, 43 pts = (base cost 23 + Melta Bombs 5 + Power Sword x1 15)
1 Chaos Rhino, 35 pts

Troops: Chaos Space Marines (9#, 188 pts)
7 Chaos Space Marines, 110 pts = 7 * 13 (base cost 13) + Close Combat Weapon x7 14 + Flamer 5
1 Aspiring Champion, 43 pts = (base cost 23 + Melta Bombs 5 + Power Sword x1 15)
1 Chaos Rhino, 35 pts

Troops: Chaos Space Marines (11#, 218 pts)
9 Chaos Space Marines, 155 pts = 9 * 13 (base cost 13) + Close Combat Weapon x9 18 + Meltagun 10 + Meltagun 10
1 Aspiring Champion, 28 pts = (base cost 23 + Melta Bombs 5)
1 Chaos Rhino, 35 pts

Troops: Chaos Space Marines (11#, 228 pts)
9 Chaos Space Marines, 165 pts = 9 * 13 (base cost 13) + Close Combat Weapon x9 18 + Plasma gun 15 + Plasma gun 15
1 Aspiring Champion, 28 pts = (base cost 23 + Melta Bombs 5)
1 Chaos Rhino, 35 pts

Heavy Support: Forgefiend (1#, 175 pts)
1 Forgefiend, 175 pts

Heavy Support: Forgefiend (1#, 175 pts)
1 Forgefiend, 175 pts

Heavy Support: Forgefiend (1#, 175 pts)
1 Forgefiend, 175 pts

Heavy Support: Maulerfiend (1#, 125 pts)
1 Maulerfiend, 125 pts

Heavy Support: Maulerfiend (1#, 125 pts)
1 Maulerfiend, 125 pts

Heavy Support: Maulerfiend (1#, 125 pts)
1 Maulerfiend, 125 pts

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Re: 5th to 6th....

Post  Lore Weaver on Sun Nov 11, 2012 4:41 pm

I like it, but I like Maulerfiends and Forgefiends, so I'm not entirely objective :-)

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Re: 5th to 6th....

Post  Roland on Sun Nov 11, 2012 7:07 pm

I think they compliment each other. But you have to take enough pairs... At 1500 I don't think this works at all.

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Re: 5th to 6th....

Post  Lore Weaver on Sun Nov 11, 2012 8:26 pm

I'd like to try a 2-3 Hellbrute and 3 fiend list.

Along with some Thousand Son's dubers, random chumps, and cultists.

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Re: 5th to 6th....

Post  Timbo on Sun Nov 11, 2012 8:34 pm

I think it would work much better as a single force org list with 3 maulerfiends and 3 helbrutes.

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Re: 5th to 6th....

Post  Roland on Sun Nov 11, 2012 8:38 pm

Tim: reaper/ml? Thatd leave about 150 points to play with, helblade?

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Re: 5th to 6th....

Post  Timbo on Sun Nov 11, 2012 8:49 pm

I think if you could squeeze a flier in there it would help the balance a ton. MFs are great for killing vehicles, the flier is great for killing infantry. I'd drop the sorc, and keep the list aggressive with infiltrating guys. The MFs will need support following them up.

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Re: 5th to 6th....

Post  Lore Weaver on Sun Nov 11, 2012 9:12 pm

Good point Tim, Huron lets D3 units infiltrate, might we worth dropping a pair of Rhino's, then you'll have 70 more points to play with.

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Re: 5th to 6th....

Post  Roland on Sun Nov 11, 2012 10:35 pm

The FF to Dread conversion leave 180 pts free. In goes a drake.

Hurons grants 1d3 units... figure 2.

My thinking is I want to infiltrate the CSM duders right? If I infiltrate the MF, they can't assault 1st turn anyways, so my opponent will just pour everything into them, then deal with the Rhinos and Dreads. By infiltrating the rhinos, he has to choose with the CSM, the MF, or the Dreads. All while worrying about the drake coming in.

Incidently, realization. If i do this, I'll be getting Decimators to sub in for the MF and a hell blade for the drake. Same size and cheaper. (A hell blade is 52 poinds, roughly $78 vs $89 for the GW. The Decimator is 54 pounds, roughly $81 vs $79 for GW. And that would be for 4 decimator arms (2 butcher cannons, 2 seige claws) so I could make it either a Mauler or Forge fiend.

Dropping the Sorc and 2 rhinos would free up...185. Second drake? And there would still be 25 pts floating.

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Re: 5th to 6th....

Post  System Commander on Sun Nov 11, 2012 11:00 pm

Dont get caught doing what i did.. You can only infiltrate infantry units Smile

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Re: 5th to 6th....

Post  Roland on Sun Nov 11, 2012 11:10 pm

That would settle it....

1-3 of the CSM squads infiltrate, the remainder go in rhinos. (I may have an empty rhino or 2 rolling around.) They try to disrupt/cause trouble while the MF rush forward and the Dreads lay down some long range firepower.

Then the drakes roll in.

.....

Profit.

Side note: Would Huron not fit well with all the 3xTermicide lists? It's effectively the replacement for deep strike.....

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Re: 5th to 6th....

Post  System Commander on Sun Nov 11, 2012 11:54 pm

Ive definitly thought of huron with a couple big terminator units.

At least have a few units of csm in reserve in case a couple vindis turn up and you need to hide Smile

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Re: 5th to 6th....

Post  Timbo on Mon Nov 12, 2012 1:37 am

Keep the rhinos sir! That's ablative armour for your mans. Rhinos infiltrate just as well as infantry does.

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Re: 5th to 6th....

Post  Timbo on Mon Nov 12, 2012 1:52 am

HQ
Huron 160
Elites
Helbrute w. Reaper/Missile Launcher 115
Helbrute w. Reaper/Missile Launcher 115
Helbrute w. Reaper/Missile Launcher 115
Troops
10 CSM w. 2X Flamers, Melta Bombs 155
Rhino 35
10 CSM w. 2X Meltaguns, Melta Bombs 165
Rhino 35
10 CSM w. 2X Plasma Guns, Melta Bombs 175
Rhino 35
20 Cultists w. 2X Flamers 100
Fast Attack
Heldrake w. Baleflamer 170
Heavy Support
Maulerfiend 125
Maulerfiend 125
Maulerfiend 125
1750 points

How about this? 4 troops, Huron can't infiltrate so he can move up with the cultist mob. Got a bit of in-your-face. Some boots on the ground. Some redundancy. It's a pure CSM army that I don't hate!

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Re: 5th to 6th....

Post  System Commander on Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:08 am

I think Huron can infiltrate. You can make him one of the infiltrating units, then any unit he joins gains it as well. He's infantry so I think your ok there.


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Re: 5th to 6th....

Post  Timbo on Mon Nov 12, 2012 4:29 am

True enough. I guess you could drop a CSM in one of the squads to make room in a rhino for him, and then give the cultists some autoguns or something.

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Re: 5th to 6th....

Post  Lore Weaver on Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:48 am

Timbo wrote:Keep the rhinos sir! That's ablative armour for your mans. Rhinos infiltrate just as well as infantry does.

Ah, I didn't realize this.

Now, before you buy models, play test those rhino units. I'm not sure on effectiveness because of the ease of a rhino suffering a shaken or stunned result.

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Re: 5th to 6th....

Post  Roland on Mon Nov 12, 2012 10:17 am

I likes and see several ways to scale up and down.

Needed: Huron
Another csm squad
10 more cultists
2 rhinos
2x Hell blade
3x decimators

Although I can proxy most of it for now.

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Re: 5th to 6th....

Post  Lore Weaver on Mon Nov 12, 2012 10:43 am

If you want to give this style of list a shot sometime at 1500, 1750, or 2000, let me know

Edit: Although... by the time I have free time, might be a while!

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Re: 5th to 6th....

Post  Timbo on Mon Nov 12, 2012 12:04 pm

I've got all the chaos stuff from the DV set Beau. I'll practically give it away! Wink

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Re: 5th to 6th....

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