5th to 6th....

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5th to 6th....

Post  Roland on Fri Nov 09, 2012 10:03 pm

So.... enough bitching, gotta put something down.
This is the 3rd redo of this army list. Its gone from 3.5 to 4th to 5th and now 6th...

2000 Pts - Chaos Space Marines Roster

Total Roster Cost: 1999

HQ: Chaos Lord (1#, 150 pts)
1 Chaos Lord, 115 pts = (base cost 65 + Mark of Khorne 10 + Sigil of Corruption 25 + Plasma Pistol 15)
1 Axe of Blind Fury, 35 pts

HQ: Sorcerer (1#, 115 pts)
1 Sorcerer, 115 pts = (base cost 60 + Increase Mastery Level x1 25 + Plasma Pistol 15 + Aura of Dark Glory 15)

Troops: Khorne Berserkers (9#, 234 pts)
7 Khorne Berserkers, 145 pts = 7 * 19 (base cost 19) + Chainaxe x4 12
1 Berserker Champion, 54 pts = (base cost 29 + Power Fist x1 25)
1 Chaos Rhino, 35 pts

Troops: Chaos Space Marines (11#, 263 pts)
9 Chaos Space Marines, 188 pts = 9 * 15 (base cost 13 + Mark of Khorne 2) + Icon of Wrath 20 + Close Combat Weapon x9 18 + Meltagun 10 + Flamer 5
1 Aspiring Champion, 40 pts = (base cost 23 + Mark of Khorne 2 + Power Axe x1 15)
1 Chaos Rhino, 35 pts

Troops: Chaos Space Marines (10#, 208 pts)
9 Chaos Space Marines, 185 pts = 9 * 13 (base cost 13) + Icon of Vengeance 25 + Close Combat Weapon x9 18 + Plasma gun 15 + Heavy Bolter 10
1 Aspiring Champion, 23 pts

Fast Attack: Chaos Bikers (5#, 185 pts)
4 Chaos Bikers, 128 pts = 4 * 22 (base cost 20 + Mark of Khorne 2) + Icon of Wrath 20 + Meltagun x2 20
1 Biker Champion, 57 pts = (base cost 30 + Mark of Khorne 2 + Power Fist x1 25)

Heavy Support: Defiler (1#, 195 pts)
1 Defiler, 195 pts

Heavy Support: Havocs (5#, 130 pts)
4 Havocs, 106 pts = 4 * 14 (base cost 13 + Veterans of the Long War 1) + Autocannon x2 20 + Missile Launcher x2 30
1 Aspiring Champion, 24 pts = (base cost 23 + Veterans of the Long War 1)

Heavy Support: Obliterator (3#, 219 pts)
3 Obliterator, 219 pts = 3 * 73 (base cost 70 + Veterans of the Long War 3)

HQ: Herald of Khorne (1#, 100 pts)
1 Herald of Khorne (HQ) [cd], 100 pts = (base cost 70) + DG: Iron Hide 15 + DGK: Blessings of The Blood God 5 + DGK: Fury of Khorne 10

Troops: Bloodletters of Khorne (10#, 200 pts)
10 Bloodletters of Khorne (Troops) [cd], 200 pts = 10 * 16 (base cost 16) + DGK: Fury of Khorne x1 10 + DG: Chaos Icon x1 25 + DG: Instrument of Chaos x1 5

I'm not wild about it. For all the MoK, getting an assault of will be an exercise in madness. I'd rather switch out for the other Defiler (Reaper/Flail) but I need 25 pts. I think it'll be fun to try, but obviously needs work.

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Re: 5th to 6th....

Post  Rhaevyn on Fri Nov 09, 2012 10:32 pm

I'm going to stay positive here.

not sure on the allies. seems to me that they stand out like a sore thumb and dont add anything to the mix. I would just double up on Berzerker squads instead, If you want those CC troops. It would give you the extra points you want for the defiler, and perhaps give you a few spare points to flesh out that bike squad with another duder?


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Re: 5th to 6th....

Post  Roland on Fri Nov 09, 2012 10:49 pm

No more Zerkers, so I added my last CSM squad. I could prob lose the LasC to get the extra bikers.

2000 Pts - Chaos Space Marines Roster - Beau's CSM

Total Roster Cost: 1997

HQ: Chaos Lord (1#, 150 pts)
1 Chaos Lord, 115 pts = (base cost 65 + Mark of Khorne 10 + Sigil of Corruption 25 + Plasma Pistol 15)
1 Axe of Blind Fury, 35 pts

HQ: Sorcerer (1#, 115 pts)
1 Sorcerer, 115 pts = (base cost 60 + Increase Mastery Level x1 25 + Plasma Pistol 15 + Aura of Dark Glory 15)

Troops: Khorne Berserkers (9#, 234 pts)
7 Khorne Berserkers, 145 pts = 7 * 19 (base cost 19) + Chainaxe x4 12
1 Berserker Champion, 54 pts = (base cost 29 + Power Fist x1 25)
1 Chaos Rhino, 35 pts

Troops: Chaos Space Marines (11#, 273 pts)
9 Chaos Space Marines, 188 pts = 9 * 15 (base cost 13 + Mark of Khorne 2) + Icon of Wrath 20 + Close Combat Weapon x9 18 + Flamer 5 + Heavy Bolter 10
1 Aspiring Champion, 50 pts = (base cost 23 + Mark of Khorne 2 + Power Fist x1 25)
1 Chaos Rhino, 35 pts

Troops: Chaos Space Marines (10#, 238 pts)
9 Chaos Space Marines, 190 pts = 9 * 13 (base cost 13) + Icon of Vengeance 25 + Close Combat Weapon x9 18 + Meltagun 10 + Lascannon 20
1 Aspiring Champion, 48 pts = (base cost 23 + Power Fist x1 25)

Troops: Chaos Space Marines (10#, 233 pts)
9 Chaos Space Marines, 185 pts = 9 * 13 (base cost 13) + Icon of Vengeance 25 + Close Combat Weapon x9 18 + Plasma gun 15 + Heavy Bolter 10
1 Aspiring Champion, 48 pts = (base cost 23 + Power Fist x1 25)

Fast Attack: Chaos Bikers (5#, 185 pts)
4 Chaos Bikers, 128 pts = 4 * 22 (base cost 20 + Mark of Khorne 2) + Icon of Wrath 20 + Meltagun x2 20
1 Biker Champion, 57 pts = (base cost 30 + Mark of Khorne 2 + Power Fist x1 25)

Heavy Support: Defiler (1#, 220 pts)
1 Defiler, 220 pts = (base cost 195 + Power Scourge 25)

Heavy Support: Havocs (5#, 130 pts)
4 Havocs, 106 pts = 4 * 14 (base cost 13 + Veterans of the Long War 1) + Autocannon x2 20 + Missile Launcher x2 30
1 Aspiring Champion, 24 pts = (base cost 23 + Veterans of the Long War 1)

Heavy Support: Obliterator (3#, 219 pts)
3 Obliterator, 219 pts = 3 * 73 (base cost 70 + Veterans of the Long War 3)

Also available to sub in:
2x 10 man cultist squads
2x 9 Plague marines (melta, melta, PF)

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Re: 5th to 6th....

Post  Rhaevyn on Fri Nov 09, 2012 11:17 pm

could maybe swap the lascannon to the plasmagun squad.
Then perhaps swap out the Heavy bolter for a second meltagun?
I have a few floating around if necessary.

I think perhaps the only suggestions i have are to double up on specials and lose the heavies? double melta and perhaps double plasma will give you more mobility and define a role for each unit in practice.

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Re: 5th to 6th....

Post  System Commander on Fri Nov 09, 2012 11:18 pm

I am a bit eager to try the defiler out.. Theres been some good things said about them.

My main hang up.with using now is simply that they nevwe really killed alot for me in the past.. And now with the piints increase ill need them to perform good and im not sure they can yet. We'll see.

I played one game with regular oblits.. Then realized ill prob always take MoN after making a cover saves against lascannons.. Which would of instakilled both. MoN for me now.. Just for the str 8/9 protection alone Smile That extra leadership though.. I can see why youd want it.

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Re: 5th to 6th....

Post  Roland on Fri Nov 09, 2012 11:30 pm

I'll have to see what I've got. As of right now I think the 3 specials are all I have.

I'm gonna give the Defiler a go, if it doesn't work, in go more oblits.

I've got some dreads I may work in as well.

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Re: 5th to 6th....

Post  Rhaevyn on Fri Nov 09, 2012 11:49 pm

let me know if you need meltas or plasmagun. i have a few of each from some packs i bought online

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Re: 5th to 6th....

Post  Timbo on Sat Nov 10, 2012 12:52 am

Watch a few Frontlinegaming batreps to see the Defiler in action. He's every bit as good as you'd expect for 195+ points.

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Re: 5th to 6th....

Post  System Commander on Sat Nov 10, 2012 12:59 am

Ahhh.. awesome. Smile

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Re: 5th to 6th....

Post  Timbo on Sat Nov 10, 2012 1:01 am

It's pretty funny actually. He gets one-shotted by a lascannon every single game. That was one of the biggest things about the CSM book that pissed me off (of many, many things). The price increase on the Defiler. It was no good in 5th edition, and got worse in 6th edition. And they raise the price by 30%? Just a huge WTF moment for me.

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Re: 5th to 6th....

Post  System Commander on Sat Nov 10, 2012 1:08 am

Ack.. thats my biggest fear in using him. Im sure thats what going to happen when I try him anyway.. one shot dead.. back on the shelf for another two years.

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Re: 5th to 6th....

Post  judchic on Sat Nov 10, 2012 10:05 am

It's funny I thought the defiler was horribly under costed in 5th. It's a walker with a battlecannon! It blows marines out of the water and now it can fire any other guns it has. Plus never sneer at a 5+ invul and regaining hull points. Some games it could be blown up in one shot but now things like missiles have a harder time outright killing it.

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Re: 5th to 6th....

Post  Lore Weaver on Sat Nov 10, 2012 10:08 am

If it had Daemonforge it'd be worth it.

Having a Forgefiend to snag First-Blood using Daemonforge is kinda good.

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Re: 5th to 6th....

Post  Roland on Sat Nov 10, 2012 10:46 am

If you fire the battle cannon, everything else has to snap fire.

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Re: 5th to 6th....

Post  Aegwymourn on Sat Nov 10, 2012 10:48 am

I always thought the defiler looked awesome. but perhaps its one of those "the grass is greener" moments with my loyalist BT.

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Re: 5th to 6th....

Post  judchic on Sat Nov 10, 2012 12:21 pm

Lore Weaver wrote:If it had Daemonforge it'd be worth it.

Having a Forgefiend to snag First-Blood using Daemonforge is kinda good.

would be cool if... oh wait, IT DOES!

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Re: 5th to 6th....

Post  Timbo on Sat Nov 10, 2012 12:23 pm

judchic wrote:It's funny I thought the defiler was horribly under costed in 5th. It's a walker with a battlecannon! It blows marines out of the water and now it can fire any other guns it has. Plus never sneer at a 5+ invul and regaining hull points. Some games it could be blown up in one shot but now things like missiles have a harder time outright killing it.

Clearly it was not horribly undercosted. It was just horrible. Battlecannons were poor in 5th edition because you were basically reducing a MEQ's armour save by 1 due to the preponderance of cover. Plus BS3 means lots of scatter, assuming your Defiler gets to shoot at all. Now they are poor because they are almost useless against vehicles due to the new damage chart. Cover is worse admittedly, but the vehicle got priced way out of reason.

I'm not saying you didn't have success with yours. Certainly a big blast weapon has lots of potential. As players we tend to remember when a unit makes an impact rather than when it dies silently to a single shot. A defiler is great for fun games if you don't care too much about winning and losing. However, the fact that a 200 point, armour 12 piece of kit can be destroyed by a single shot alone makes it unplayable in any sort of competitive list. 4 hull points and a 5++ means nothing when it's a smoking crater. Competitive lists need units that will perform consistently even when the dice are not going your way. That's why the top armies have redundancy and boots on the ground. Using a poker analogy, the top tournament players like to play lots of little pots because they feel they can grind down their opponents with little risk to themselves. The defiler is the coinflip. Just go all-in every hand and hope to get lucky. You might win several in a row. However, very rarely is that strategy a tournament winner.

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Re: 5th to 6th....

Post  Timbo on Sat Nov 10, 2012 12:26 pm

Lore Weaver wrote:
Having a Forgefiend to snag First-Blood using Daemonforge is kinda good.

Keep telling yourself that and it might eventually come true! Wink

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Re: 5th to 6th....

Post  Roland on Sat Nov 10, 2012 12:44 pm

I'm thinking eventually trading the lord for Huron, and running lots of cheap CSM squads with double specials in rhino's might be spiffy. Add some oblits or Ac/Las Preds for HS.

Something like this.

2000 Pts - Chaos Space Marines Roster

Total Roster Cost: 1999

HQ: Huron Blackheart (1#, 160 pts)
1 Huron Blackheart, 160 pts

HQ: Sorcerer (1#, 130 pts)
1 Sorcerer, 130 pts = (base cost 60 + Mark of Tzeentch 15 + Increase Mastery Level x1 25 + Plasma Pistol 15 + Aura of Dark Glory 15)

Troops: Chaos Space Marines (10#, 223 pts)
8 Chaos Space Marines, 130 pts = 8 * 13 (base cost 13) + Close Combat Weapon x8 16 + Meltagun 10
1 Aspiring Champion, 48 pts = (base cost 23 + Power Fist x1 25)
1 Chaos Rhino, 45 pts = (base cost 35 + Combi-melta 10)

Troops: Chaos Space Marines (10#, 223 pts)
8 Chaos Space Marines, 130 pts = 8 * 13 (base cost 13) + Close Combat Weapon x8 16 + Meltagun 10
1 Aspiring Champion, 48 pts = (base cost 23 + Power Fist x1 25)
1 Chaos Rhino, 45 pts = (base cost 35 + Combi-melta 10)

Troops: Chaos Space Marines (11#, 276 pts)
9 Chaos Space Marines, 188 pts = 9 * 13 (base cost 13) + Icon of Vengeance 25 + Close Combat Weapon x8 16 + Plasma gun 15 + Plasma gun 15
1 Aspiring Champion, 43 pts = (base cost 23 + Melta Bombs 5 + Power Sword x1 15)
1 Chaos Rhino, 45 pts = (base cost 35 + Combi-melta 10)

Troops: Chaos Space Marines (11#, 266 pts)
9 Chaos Space Marines, 178 pts = 9 * 13 (base cost 13) + Icon of Vengeance 25 + Close Combat Weapon x8 16 + Meltagun 10 + Meltagun 10
1 Aspiring Champion, 43 pts = (base cost 23 + Melta Bombs 5 + Power Sword x1 15)
1 Chaos Rhino, 45 pts = (base cost 35 + Combi-melta 10)

Heavy Support: Chaos Predator (1#, 100 pts)
1 Chaos Predator, 100 pts = (base cost 75 + Twin-Linked Lascannon 25)

Heavy Support: Chaos Predator (1#, 100 pts)
1 Chaos Predator, 100 pts = (base cost 75 + Twin-Linked Lascannon 25)

Heavy Support: Chaos Predator (1#, 100 pts)
1 Chaos Predator, 100 pts = (base cost 75 + Twin-Linked Lascannon 25)

Fast Attack: Heldrake (1#, 170 pts)
1 Heldrake, 170 pts

Fast Attack: Heldrake (1#, 170 pts)
1 Heldrake, 170 pts

Troops: Chaos Cultists (14#, 81 pts)
13 Chaos Cultists, 65 pts = 13 * 4 (base cost 4) + Autogun x8 8 + Heavy Stubber x1 5
1 Cultist Champion, 16 pts = (base cost 14) + Shotgun 2

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Re: 5th to 6th....

Post  System Commander on Sat Nov 10, 2012 1:21 pm

I really think Huron looks great. I havent had a chance to give him a go .. but I definitely want to give it a try.

I had good success with the defiler in 4th, he used to have a barrage weapon! In 5th, he was pretty easy to kill.. and with 4+ cover and all the vehicles around.. and the dot on target rule, I was really lucky if it managed to kill a couple models.. I tried him a couple times but ditched him. For 150 points though it wasnt bad, it was just that the other Heavy Support options seemed more important.

Now.. at 195 it just seems a bit pricey.. and I'm unsure how much he can kill to make it worth while. I like the vindicator with armour 13 and the str 10 gun for only 125. But.. I havent tried it at all yet. If I get chance for a 2000 point game and a double force org, I would definitly give him a try.

SOme games he'll be gone in one shot, although I bet some games he'll just sit around forever, firing every turn and healing Smile


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Re: 5th to 6th....

Post  judchic on Sat Nov 10, 2012 1:29 pm

i'm giving him a thumbs up. the cannon is still a terror for both massed infantry and massed armor now and the 72" range means little ways to hide. ya it could be blown up turn one but thats the risk of any big points unit. i wouldnt run 2 but if there other threats on the table it might not get pasted off the bat either.

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Re: 5th to 6th....

Post  Rhaevyn on Sat Nov 10, 2012 2:10 pm

I just wish every daemon engine didn't have to pay for the "privilege" of having Daemonic Posession. who in thier right mind would ever pay 15+ points to reduce your BS to 3 (and miss 17% more shots)and gain some stupid rules that rarely help, and are generally bad. if your engine is getting penetrated. you have bigger things to worry about than stunned and shaken... on top of that, if you are using it on a transport, and its down hull points, how often do you want to put guys back inside it and perhaps lose one of them to getting eaten.. and the probably blow up and take more wounds to whatever took the hull points off in the first place?

It just doesnt make any sense and pretty much ruins the engines. Look at all three daemon engines and then ask yourself if you would field them if they were 15 points cheaper and WS/BS 4 ?

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Re: 5th to 6th....

Post  Timbo on Sat Nov 10, 2012 2:41 pm

judchic wrote:i'm giving him a thumbs up. the cannon is still a terror for both massed infantry and massed armor now and the 72" range means little ways to hide. ya it could be blown up turn one but thats the risk of any big points unit. i wouldnt run 2 but if there other threats on the table it might not get pasted off the bat either.

I disagree with every point you just made. AP3 is not much of a threat to vehicles. Any big points unit should read: any big points single model. The other ones that have a comparable cost are fliers (snapshots) and land raiders (armour 14). Those have defences far beyond what a defiler does. The defiler's (and also forgefiend's) high cost and low AV will make them the first thing to die almost every game. What are you fielding that will draw heat off of the defiler?

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Re: 5th to 6th....

Post  Lore Weaver on Sat Nov 10, 2012 5:17 pm

judchic wrote:
Lore Weaver wrote:If it had Daemonforge it'd be worth it.

Having a Forgefiend to snag First-Blood using Daemonforge is kinda good.

would be cool if... oh wait, IT DOES!

Forgefiend is better at it, with 8 S8 shots

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Re: 5th to 6th....

Post  Timbo on Sat Nov 10, 2012 6:04 pm

I agree Mark, although I still don't think the FF is worth the points either. It's not as glaringly awful as the defiler though.

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Re: 5th to 6th....

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