The Nightscythe

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The Nightscythe

Post  Planes on Tue Oct 30, 2012 8:43 pm

The topic of the Nightscythe seems to be creeping it's way into several threads around here, and I felt it might be best to simply have a thread to contain discussion of it rather than having it continue to contaminate/take over others. I have heard it compared to the Mortis Dread, and as C:GK is the only Space Marine codex I have in my possession, I will be using that as a base to read point values from. Should these point values be different in other codices, and it likely will be given the existence of Psybolt, be sure to chime in. The other comparable I will be using for this will be the Annihilation Barge, as it is the next closest model in terms of fire power and point value to the Nightscythe in C:Necrons.

Basic Points:
The Nightscythe rings in at 100 points, no upgrades available.
The GK Mortis rings in at 130 points (135 if psybolt is taken), with a bevy of other options available.
The Annihilation Barge rings in at 90 points, and has a choice of underslung cannons that can be swapped free of charge.

Mobility:
The Nightscythe has a minimum speed of 18" and maximum of 36", and has this same range again for it's Flat Out.
The Nightscythe is restricted to a single 90 degree turn at the start of it's movement.
The Nightscythe is not subject to terrain for movement.

The GK Mortis is not required to move, but may choose to move upwards of 6", and run d6" in the shooting phase.
The GK Mortis may maneuver as much as it's movement allows.
The GK Mortis is subject to dangerous terrain tests.

The Annihilation Barge is not required to move, but may choose to move upwards of 6" or 12" with degenerative effects upon it's shooting, and may Flat Out an additional 6".
The Annihilation Barge may maneuver as much as it's movement allows.
The Annihilation Barge is subject to dangerous terrain tests at the beginning and end of it's movement, but not for intervening terrain or models.

Shooting:
The Nightscythe has four twin-linked shots at ballistic skill four and strength 7. These shots have no AP and are subject to the Tesla and Arc special rules.
The Nightscythe can only withstand a single weapon destroyed result.
The Nightscythe is subject to the fixed weapon mounting rule, creating a dead zone in it's shooting range immediately in front of it unless the target is another flier.

The GK Mortis has four twin-linked shots at ballistic skill four and strength 8 (using Psybolt Ammunition). These shots have an AP of four.
The GK Mortis can only withstand two weapon destroyed results.

The Annihilation Barge has four twin-linked shots at ballistic skill four and strength 7. These shots have no AP and are subject to the Tesla and Arc special rules.
The Annihilation Barge also has two shots from an underslung cannon, a choice of a strength five, AP three with the Gauss special rule, or a strength six, AP nil with the Tesla special rule.
The Annihilation Barge can only withstand two weapon destroyed results.

Defense:
The Nightscythe has armor 11 all around, making it immune to strength four shooting.
The Nightscythe has consistent access to a 5+ cover save, which can improve to a 4+ cover save if it chose to go Flat Out.
The Nightscythe, being a flier, can only be hit on a roll of a six unless the attacker has Skyfire. This also makes it immune to melee.
The Nightscythe has Living Metal, allowing a chance to negate Stunned and Shaken results.

The GK Mortis has armor 12 on the front and side, with 10 on the rear, making it immune to strength five shooting on most facings.
The GK Mortis is subject to melee, but may overwatch and fight back.

The Annihilation Barge has armor 11 all around, supplemented by Quantum Shielding, making it immune to strength six shooting on most facing until a penetrating hit occurs, at which point it is only immune to strength four shooting from that point forward.
The Annihilation Barge has access to a 5+ cover save if it moved, trading shooting for survival, which can improve to a 4+ cover save if it chose to go Flat Out.
The Annihilation Barge is subject to melee and may not overwatch or fight back. However, not being a walker, the Annihilation Barge may choose to simply skimmer away from a combat on it's turn.
The Annihilation Barge is Open Topped, subjecting it to an additional +1 on the vehicle damage chart.

All three vehicles have three hull points.

Deployment:
The Nightscythe must start in reserve.

The GK Mortis may start on the field.

The Annihilation Barge may start on the field.


I can't believe all of the above took me over an hour to type up. Keep getting interrupted every other sentence for some reason or another.


I will agree that the Nightscythe is costed incredibly aggressively given it's potential as a weapons platform, it is also the only dedicated transport that C:Necron has worth mentioning. The Command Barge is a one man delivery system at best, and the Ghost Ark is simply a 115 point option for a Warrior squad. This makes the Nightscythe the work horse of the Necron transports, which has the inherent problem that it is a freaking Pegasus rather than a mundane animal. Necrons lack an equivalent to the 35 point rhino, which I thoroughly bemoan. If they put out some kind of pod skimmer through either Forge World or White Dwarf, I would be all for making the Night Scythe more in line points wise to the Mortis Dread.

I am sure that I had more points to make there, but interruptions keep disrupting my train of thought.

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Re: The Nightscythe

Post  System Commander on Tue Oct 30, 2012 9:28 pm

Are you defending the points cost or just wanting to discuss the nightscythe in general?

I realize that the GK is the only other book you got.. But it is a bad comparison.. but I guess Im not sure wgat were supposed to be discussing?

And one.of the big point about night scythes.. If you manage to blow it up.. the occupants are all aok.. Having.to walk in from the side instead.. that one really irks me Smile

But why did you use the dread for comparison? I missed that

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Re: The Nightscythe

Post  Lore Weaver on Tue Oct 30, 2012 9:30 pm

The issue is that it's cheap (only 10 points more than the Annihilation Barge)
Holds 15 models

Is dedicated transport (doesn't take up any force org spots)

Has S7 shooting that averages 5 hits (3-Cool

Is a flyer (hit on 6's, evading mean's it's down to 3-6 hits in it's next shooting phase)

It can pickup and dropoff models without having to slow down.

Now it's not "do I take a Night Scythe or Annihilation Barge" it's "How many of each do I take"

3 Annihilation Barges is 270pts. 5 warriors in a Scythe is 165 points. Two great tastes that taste great together.

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Re: The Nightscythe

Post  Planes on Tue Oct 30, 2012 9:48 pm

I wanted just a general discussion of the unit in general. As for the mortis:

Rhaevyn wrote:it ignores the rule that something with the same cost and efficacy of a Rifleman dreadnought (which is already good) shouldnt fly, get extra hits on 6's , carry troops, and be able to drop said troops anywhere without incident.

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Re: The Nightscythe

Post  judchic on Tue Oct 30, 2012 10:08 pm

how does it get a 5+ cover save...? by jinking?

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Re: The Nightscythe

Post  Planes on Tue Oct 30, 2012 10:21 pm

Yes, Jink is a cover save as of last reading.

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Re: The Nightscythe

Post  Aegwymourn on Tue Oct 30, 2012 10:34 pm

The problem I have with Nightscythes is that it has to many special rules that add up to an amazingly good unit that is probably undercosted. It has: dedicated transport; inversion beams(thats the rule for teleporting right?); tesla; flyer; living metal; deep strike. In the world of GK level of power, not so bad. In the new world of Chaos Space Marines, way unbalanced.

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Re: The Nightscythe

Post  Roland on Tue Oct 30, 2012 10:42 pm

Compare it to it's competition. The Ghost Ark.

I think the Ghost Ark is a fantastic transport. it's Open topped so you can assault out of it. It can shoot at 3 seperate targets and glance all of them to death. It's AV 13 so it's hard to pop unless you have meltas or PF to pop it. Marine players would KILL for this transport (especially Chaos guys).

The NightScythe is 15 points CHEAPER and outpreforms the Ark in every possible way.

To use the rifleman example..... imagine if GW FAQ'd the GK Psyfleman so it could take a teleportor, could carry a GK squad on it's back, and had a 5+ invul. Redonkulous right? But that's what a NightScythe is.

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Re: The Nightscythe

Post  System Commander on Tue Oct 30, 2012 11:05 pm

Ouch.. These.types of discussions make me sad about the chaos book all over again.

That and i made another half dozen chaos lists tonught that i didnt like Sad

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Re: The Nightscythe

Post  Planes on Tue Oct 30, 2012 11:05 pm

Assaulting out of an Ark is rather moot, though, as Warriors are crap in melee, unless you're trying to force a court into it.

I won't deny that it is really, really good. However, I will point out that it does have it's draw backs. The Mortis can start raining hell on turn one, where as the Night Scythe shows up turn two at the earliest. The Mortis has an effective range of 48" with no "minimum range dead zone", while the Nightscythe has it's 24" max range with a minimum based off of it's 45 degree fixed ark (the range being a general locked in thing of C:Necrons in almost all of their shooting). The Mortis can elect to hold it's ground and rain sustained fire upon an objective, where as a Nightscythe will have a maximum of one turn of shooting at any given target because of it's zooming requirement, or sometimes no shooting at all as it exists the board. If I am going for *just* a gun platform, I would personally go for the Mortis Dread, where as the Nightscythe has the ability to harass and strafe as it drops my troops off onto an objective. It's good, but it is an entirely different role from the dread due to the forced movement.

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Re: The Nightscythe

Post  System Commander on Tue Oct 30, 2012 11:09 pm

But.. I dont understand why were comparing a flyer transport to a dreadnought?

Did you choose the dread because its picked often? I dont know what were supposed to compare? We cant compare them.. Walker, shooter vs. Flyer, transport.


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Re: The Nightscythe

Post  Planes on Tue Oct 30, 2012 11:18 pm

I listed it in here because of other earlier comparisons by others on this forum. If comparisons were being made anyway, I felt I might as well explode out the details of it.

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Re: The Nightscythe

Post  Spamus Eatus on Tue Oct 30, 2012 11:21 pm

I think the idea was to pick very solid, almost default choice units from recent codices that have roughly similar point costs, and then conduct a fun thought experiment.

That being said, it is a very difficult comparison, as they do TOTALLY different jobs.

I like the Nightscythe, but the tesla destroyer can only do so much. Now if you REALLY wanna bring the flying pain, rock the Doomscythe. Just ask Beau Very Happy (Yes, I am aware it is a slightly inefficient use of pts, but it's awesome and fun, so I win the argument)

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Re: The Nightscythe

Post  Planes on Tue Oct 30, 2012 11:40 pm

I love the Doom Scythe with it's str 10 ap 1 line-o-doom, though I hate that it's AA capacity has been entirely removed rather than making it hit only the level of targets it's other gun shot at (air if skyfire, ground otherwise). The Nigthscythe also can't touch AV 14, so Monoliths, Land Raiders, Russes.

A Nightscythe is also, by no means, a Vendetta. The IG flier has the capacity to make short work of the aforementioned AV 14's that the pastry can't do anything to.

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Re: The Nightscythe

Post  Timbo on Wed Oct 31, 2012 12:26 am

It's not just a little undercosted or "probably" undercosted. It is about 40-50 points undercosted. Same goes for the Vendetta. Heldrake is costed appropriately, as are the Ork fliers IMO. Dakkajet is great on a Waagh, but that limits its use as an allied vehicle, which I'm fine with. Doom Scythe is not as bad as the Nightscythe, but its ability to kill multiple units in a turn means it is a bit undercosted also. Stormchicken seems about right, which is probably why noone uses them.

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Re: The Nightscythe

Post  Guest on Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:27 am

Well, I would think comparing these models would be a good basis for "What to spend the last 100 poitns on my list on?" discussion.

Given allies now are real, and that GK-Necron fever is running around, it begs the question, which one supports that army more.

My view is that if I were making a Gk-Necron army, I would have to ask do I need more Dakka?, Does that Dakka need to be mobile?

And could I forgo some Dakka, so that my immortals can be beamed directly onto their objective?

If you feel all the objectives are lready in your reach, and you want a base of fire, I would go Dread

If my army cannot support the dread, and wants to be more mobile, I would go Barge

If my army has trouble grabbing those objectives late game, night scyth.

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Re: The Nightscythe

Post  Rhaevyn on Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:14 am

the reason he used a dreadnought to compare is because of my comment in the other thread Robyn.

I basically said that the nightscythe has the same firepower as a rifleman dread... but can also fly, carry troops and has a host of other rules... all the while being even more cost effective than said dreadnought...

I'm not sure what the conclusion of the original post was though, as too many points were made and it was confused by adding barges to the comparison.

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Re: The Nightscythe

Post  System Commander on Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:36 am

Ahh.. Ok.. That makes sense.

I just couldnt make the connection why were comparing them out of blue.. But if it.was.being discussed.. I completly get it. It just seemed like such a bizarre comparison.

I could Barge vs. Psyfleman, scythe vs. Stormraven.. But i wasnt connecting the scythe to dread.. Thanks!

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Re: The Nightscythe

Post  Planes on Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:50 pm

The original post wasn't so much meant to have a conclusion as have the general points laid out for a comparative analysis of the three presented units, and hoping to lead to a halfways structured discussion of the Nightscythe.

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Re: The Nightscythe

Post  Roland on Wed Oct 31, 2012 2:08 pm

In a vacuum, *A* Nightscythe isn't terri-bad. Its when you pull out *4* Nightscythes, issues begin.

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Re: The Nightscythe

Post  System Commander on Wed Oct 31, 2012 2:47 pm

I think 1-2 is still rough.. But i can swallow it. Its not the necron players fault.. Thats for sure!

If thr heldrake was say.. 120 points.. Id agree it was undercosted, but at the same Id also be a bit happy i was getting a good deal Smile

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Re: The Nightscythe

Post  Planes on Wed Oct 31, 2012 5:20 pm

Roland wrote:In a vacuum, *A* Nightscythe isn't terri-bad. Its when you pull out *4* Nightscythes, issues begin.

For a while I've been eyeing up running a 3rd scythe, as either a DT or HS, but even affordable starts eating up points in a hurry when you get it in bulk. I have yet to take full advantage of it's transport capacity, either. The biggest body count I've shoved into it to date I think was 12, being 10 Tesla Immortals and a Destroyer Lord (takes up 2 slots with his big butt). While I could put 15 warriors (or 14 and a lord) into there, I think squads that size are better served by a Ghost Ark, and I see no reason to throw Tomb Blades into it, given that they're already jet bikes. The three things I'd love to throw into it, truth be told, are the three things I can't: Scarabs, Spyders, and the C'Tan. Makes perfect sense why I can't, but I would still love to do it.

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Re: The Nightscythe

Post  Timbo on Wed Oct 31, 2012 6:58 pm

Roland wrote:In a vacuum, *A* Nightscythe isn't terri-bad. Its when you pull out *4* Nightscythes, issues begin.

Well, it's just like playing with a 50-100 point handicap. It can be overcome, but not easily. When there's 8 of them, it's like playing with a 300-400 point handicap. Player skill matters for nothing when the matchup is that lopsided.

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Re: The Nightscythe

Post  Roland on Wed Oct 31, 2012 7:36 pm

Timbo wrote:
Roland wrote:In a vacuum, *A* Nightscythe isn't terri-bad. Its when you pull out *4* Nightscythes, issues begin.

Well, it's just like playing with a 50-100 point handicap. It can be overcome, but not easily. When there's 8 of them, it's like playing with a 300-400 point handicap. Player skill matters for nothing when the matchup is that lopsided.

It's the old tank squared idea. 2 are 4 times as effective. 3 are eight....

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