Chaos Theory: The Scoring Solutions

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Re: Chaos Theory: The Scoring Solutions

Post  Deadlytoaster on Sat Nov 03, 2012 1:27 am

Lore Weaver wrote:I'd paint them up like Cybermen and say "Delete, Delete" when I put them on the board.

"We have 5000 Cybermen, how many Daleks do you have?"

"Four."

"You would defeat the Cybermen with Four Daleks?"

"No, we would defeat the Cybermen with one Dalek!"

Unfortunately this is about all i had to contribute to this thread, however i do look forward to playing vs the new chaos book and having all the new rules sprung on me haha.

And hey! i enjoy my 8pt guardians Very Happy

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Re: Chaos Theory: The Scoring Solutions

Post  Planes on Sat Nov 03, 2012 10:22 am

"There is one aspect in which the Cybermen are superior to the Daleks"

"And what is that?"

"The Cybermen are superior at dieing."

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Re: Chaos Theory: The Scoring Solutions

Post  judchic on Sat Nov 03, 2012 11:42 am

EXTERMINATE.
EXTERMINATE.

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Re: Chaos Theory: The Scoring Solutions

Post  Lore Weaver on Sat Nov 03, 2012 1:07 pm

WOULD YOU LIKE SOME TEA?

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Re: Chaos Theory: The Scoring Solutions

Post  gluvzer on Sat Nov 03, 2012 2:23 pm

Thanks for the opinions Tim, on chaos scoring, resiliency, and for those point comparisons. I see it garnered some great responses and discussion! Great effort!

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Re: Chaos Theory: The Scoring Solutions

Post  Timbo on Sat Nov 03, 2012 5:44 pm

The Daleks seemed to enjoy it.

As for the answer to Chaos scoring units I would seriously consider relying on allies. I see nothing in the CSM book troop section I would willingly spend points on.

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Re: Chaos Theory: The Scoring Solutions

Post  Roland on Sat Nov 03, 2012 7:08 pm

The issue to me is ... Well compare em to vanilla marines.

For 1500 I can build an all comers list with 4-6 scoring units, some bawkes to hide em in, an equal number of support units. Everything is decently resilient, relatively cheap and I have viable options in every slot.

In the chaos codex my E and FA slot have limited options. I have some choice in HS but it'd hard to get 6 units @,100 pts a pop. So any make up points come from troops, or you have fewer higher priced chaos stuff. Honestly, a 250 pt cult troops or 2 riflemen, what would you rather take?

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Re: Chaos Theory: The Scoring Solutions

Post  Lore Weaver on Sat Nov 03, 2012 7:20 pm

Two Riflemen.

I think some of the pure lists have merit, like Typhus Zombie Horde, but otherwise requires allying with the Daemon book.

I still like the 210 pt two plasma guns in a rhino unit.

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Re: Chaos Theory: The Scoring Solutions

Post  Roland on Sat Nov 03, 2012 7:44 pm

I agree.

I've realized the failure of assault based chaos armies isn't the codex, per se, but the byb, as it killed the rhino as a pseudo assault wagon.

The real failure is nothing synergizes. Everything cost too much, or its all in the same slot. Hs has lots of choice, even if you keep it cheap. But your only real choices in FA are bikes or the helblade, so you are out 150+ per. Elites are all pricey, with the exception of 3 man termicide sqds and Helbrutes, which never seem to make up their mind if they want to rock at CC or shooting, preferring to be meh at both.

Sorry being negative. Just frustrated. Everything come back to the old oblit/plague marine or std/sorc builds. Which are worse than they were in the old dex.

I guess maybe Tzeeentch cult allies with some screamers, framers, and horrors. Maybe a CD daemon prince w/ pavane?


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Re: Chaos Theory: The Scoring Solutions

Post  Rhaevyn on Sat Nov 03, 2012 8:24 pm

I don't post for a day and look at beau taking up the torch without lost beat.

I think you had it right two posts up my friend. It's the changes to transports that fail the codex. (well. That and GW retards still valuing demonic possession at 20-30 points and considering it something anyone would want to pay for. Especially retarded is that it comes standard on daemon engines and is the prime reason that they all sucks balls)

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Re: Chaos Theory: The Scoring Solutions

Post  Timbo on Sun Nov 04, 2012 1:20 am

Well, Reecius has played two games with his Night Lords army and is slowly coming to the realization that well, see for yourself:

http://www.frontlinegaming.org/2012/11/03/chaos-double-header-part-2/

"Why is everything so overpriced in this codex?" I must admit I LOLed at the brief appearance by "Uncle Bad Touch", the Defiler.

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Re: Chaos Theory: The Scoring Solutions

Post  Timbo on Sun Nov 04, 2012 1:28 am

Lore Weaver wrote:I still like the 210 pt two plasma guns in a rhino unit.

Barf. That unit is weaksauce. And wait until DA comes out. They'll show CSM what plasma is all about.

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Re: Chaos Theory: The Scoring Solutions

Post  Rhaevyn on Sun Nov 04, 2012 2:16 am

its not that bad. its just not overly good.

The crux of the matter here is that CSM are crappier than Loyalist marines. and pay the same points to be so. nobody can deny that this is true. The other fact here is that loyalists have better choices in most slots than the CSM dex. so they do everything a CSM army can do... only better. for the same points... or less.

The elephants in the room are always going to be ATSKNF, Combat squad-ing, and combat tactics. These are apparently Free Upgrades, as a bog standard CSM unit costs virtually the same thing as a bog standard tactical squad... and is worse.

look at the below and tell me whats wrong.

210Pts - Codex: Space Marines Roster

Troops: Tactical Squad (11#, 210 pts)
. . 9 Tactical Squad, 152 pts = 9 * 16 (base cost 16) + Free Multi-Melta + Meltagun 5 + Sergeant 31
. . . . 1 Sergeant, 23 pts
. . . . 1 Rhino, 35 pts


210 Pts - Codex: Chaos Space Marines Roster

Total Roster Cost: 205

Troops: Chaos Space Marines (11#, 205 pts)
. . 9 Chaos Space Marines, 152 pts = 9 * 13 (base cost 13) + Plasma gun 15 + Plasma Gun + 15
. . . . 1 Aspiring Champion, 23
. . . . 1 Chaos Rhino, 35 pts



Same unit except that CSM dont have the Tech to figure out how to get free guns, multi-meltas or otherwise. and second, the top unit is more versatile in that it can split up if it wants and is immune to Fear, and can use combat tactics to run from the plethora of slow and purposefull shit in the CSM codex and then automatically regroup and shoot them in the face.

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Re: Chaos Theory: The Scoring Solutions

Post  miv305 on Sun Nov 04, 2012 10:41 am

@Biddick - nice comparison...if you're going to compare the 2 units why not give the Loyalists the same weapons ("i.e. 2 Plasma Guns), oh wait you can't as Tac Squads can't have 2 special weapons! A more accurate comparison would be:

Loyalist Tac Squad - 225 pts
9 Marines + Sgt w/ Plasma Gun, Plasma Cannon
Rhino

Traitor Squad - 205
9 Marines + Champ w/ 2 Plasma Guns
Rhino

So for 10% more points you get ATSKNF, Combat Tactics and Combat Squad. Certainly not a bad deal but not free either.

Seriously guys the group think on this fourm lately has been awful, who cares if the book doesn't handle CronAir, no one in this province plays it ffs!!

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Re: Chaos Theory: The Scoring Solutions

Post  Rhaevyn on Sun Nov 04, 2012 10:47 am

Cuz a plasma gun and a plasma cannon are the same thing too eh.

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Re: Chaos Theory: The Scoring Solutions

Post  miv305 on Sun Nov 04, 2012 11:03 am

What's your point Mike? A plasma gun is better, it can move and shoot, shoot twice (2 cracks at dealing with AV), etc. A plasma cannon forces you to stand there and when was the last time you saw a plasma cannon do anything?

I think every single Vanilla Marine player wishes they had the option of taking 2 specials @10 men, or 1 special @5 men, something Chaos can do yet you consistently ignore! Again, quit crying about what you can't do and focus on what you can. The faction you can ally with (Demons) is regarded as the strongest list in the game right now. Look at the combos that do exsist and stop worrying about why your book doesn't have Grey Hunters...

There's a lot to like in the book unless you start cherry-picking the best parts of several different marine codecies to make bad comparisons that don't tell the whole story.

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Re: Chaos Theory: The Scoring Solutions

Post  Roland on Sun Nov 04, 2012 11:37 am

why not the exact same equip? I was thinking more along the lines of mg/ml.

SM tact is 170

Csm are 155?,+20 if you want +1 attacks, +10 for VotLW, + too much for fearless. Think I found the issue.

We're trying to make the troop what they were in 5th rather than what they were in 3rd. Screw the extra ccw, screw vets and maybe take fearless. Maybe.


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Re: Chaos Theory: The Scoring Solutions

Post  Rhaevyn on Sun Nov 04, 2012 11:38 am

a plasma gun is not better when you can combat squad. its also not the same number of points. which was the origional point. people keep trying to tell me that CSM are so cheap and that they arent that bad. I'm not cherry picking squads, whats more basic to both armies than a Tactical squad?

and who was talking about cron air or daemons? its sure not me. talk about being off topic.

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Re: Chaos Theory: The Scoring Solutions

Post  Roland on Sun Nov 04, 2012 12:42 pm

What about a boss lord, some csm squads, oblits allied with some slaaneshi heralds, framers and screamers, and a slaaneshi daemon prince? Your choice of basic daemon pack?

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Re: Chaos Theory: The Scoring Solutions

Post  Roland on Sun Nov 04, 2012 1:20 pm

2000 Pts - Chaos Space Marines Roster

Total Roster Cost: 1950

HQ: Sorcerer (1#, 110 pts)
1 Sorcerer, 110 pts = (base cost 60 + Increase Mastery Level x1 25 + Sigil of Corruption 25)

Troops: Chaos Space Marines (10#, 202 pts)
8 Chaos Space Marines, 119 pts = 8 * 13 (base cost 13) + Plasma gun 15
1 Aspiring Champion, 48 pts = (base cost 23 + Power Fist x1 25)
1 Chaos Rhino, 35 pts

Troops: Chaos Space Marines (11#, 255 pts)
9 Chaos Space Marines, 172 pts = 9 * 13 (base cost 13) + Icon of Vengeance 25 + Plasma gun 15 + Plasma gun 15
1 Aspiring Champion, 48 pts = (base cost 23 + Power Fist x1 25)
1 Chaos Rhino, 35 pts

Troops: Chaos Space Marines (11#, 255 pts)
9 Chaos Space Marines, 172 pts = 9 * 13 (base cost 13) + Icon of Vengeance 25 + Plasma gun 15 + Plasma gun 15
1 Aspiring Champion, 48 pts = (base cost 23 + Power Fist x1 25)
1 Chaos Rhino, 35 pts

Heavy Support: Obliterator (2#, 140 pts)
2 Obliterator, 140 pts = 2 * 70

Heavy Support: Obliterator (2#, 140 pts)
2 Obliterator, 140 pts = 2 * 70

Heavy Support: Obliterator (2#, 140 pts)
2 Obliterator, 140 pts = 2 * 70

HQ: Herald of Slaanesh (1#, 70 pts)
1 Herald of Slaanesh (HQ) [cd], 70 pts = (base cost 50) + rDGS: Pavane of Slaanesh 20

HQ: Herald of Slaanesh (1#, 70 pts)
1 Herald of Slaanesh (HQ) [cd], 70 pts = (base cost 50) + rDGS: Pavane of Slaanesh 20

Troops: Daemonettes of Slaanesh (10#, 140 pts)
10 Daemonettes of Slaanesh (Troops) [cd], 140 pts = 10 * 14

Troops: Daemonettes of Slaanesh (10#, 140 pts)
10 Daemonettes of Slaanesh (Troops) [cd], 140 pts = 10 * 14

Elite: Flamers of Tzeentch (6#, 138 pts)
6 Flamers of Tzeentch (Elite) [cd], 138 pts = 6 * 23

Fast Attack: Screamers of Tzeentch (6#, 150 pts)
6 Screamers of Tzeentch (Fast) [cd], 150 pts = 6 * 25

My underwear is dry. Its not making me go "gee whiz". On the other hand, I have 2x Lash, 3x Oblits, a semi-scary Flamer and Screamer detachment.

I think Voth is right. I think the Chaos codex isn't the way it is because Kelly is an idiot. Its the way it is, because you fill those holes with Allies.

I also agree we should quit bitching about what CSM can't do and try and figure out what they CAN do.

What can they do? Specials in 5 man combat squads. 20 man squads that are fearless and have 3+. Rhino w/ Combi melta and/or havoc launchers.
What can't they do? They seem lackluster when you try to treat them like Tactical Squads. They don't do mechinized assault.

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Re: Chaos Theory: The Scoring Solutions

Post  Timbo on Sun Nov 04, 2012 4:04 pm

miv305 wrote:There's a lot to like in the book unless you start cherry-picking the best parts of several different marine codecies to make bad comparisons that don't tell the whole story.

I did mention the book contained decent fast and heavy choices. However this thread is discussing the scoring solutions. I would hardly call comparing Chaos marines to a bog-standard tactical squad "cherry picking". The humble tactical squad has always been considered a pretty average troop choice. I'll admit it did get a bit better in 6th edition. You are the one who mentioned Grey Hunters. I, with considerable restraint never even brought up Grey Knights (in this thread, at least). My point (and I think Beau's and Mike B's but I'll let them speak on this) is that the Chaos scoring units do not compare favourably to other scoring units commonly available to opposing armies. This doesn't mean the Chaos book is unusable, but I would argue that a CSM list with a healthy portion of allies (especially allied troops) will always be better than one without. Daemons, Traitor Guard and Orks all have far superior troop options to CSM. It's not even close.

In your example the tactical squad cost 20 points more than the CSM squad. 20 points for combat tactics, combat squads and ATSKNF has to be the greatest 20 points in all of 40K. It makes one unit respectable, and the other poor. And spending more points on the CSM squad subtracts value, rather than adding it.

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Re: Chaos Theory: The Scoring Solutions

Post  Lore Weaver on Sun Nov 04, 2012 4:08 pm

Ya, Allying in a Warboss with MegaNobz in a Trukk and then a unit of 30 Shoota Boyz seems like a good choice. Cheap... adds two good, resilient scoring units.

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Re: Chaos Theory: The Scoring Solutions

Post  Timbo on Sun Nov 04, 2012 4:10 pm

I'm pretty sure a warboss does not make meganobz scoring in an allied contingent. However I could be wrong.

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Re: Chaos Theory: The Scoring Solutions

Post  Lore Weaver on Sun Nov 04, 2012 4:36 pm

Timbo wrote:I'm pretty sure a warboss does not make meganobz scoring in an allied contingent. However I could be wrong.

I don't know... actually. I assumed that it would work like a mini-army list. A Warboss makes one unit of Nobz or MegaNobz count as a troops choice.

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Re: Chaos Theory: The Scoring Solutions

Post  Timbo on Sun Nov 04, 2012 4:41 pm

I think all those HQ special abilities and force-org swaps only work in core lists.

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Re: Chaos Theory: The Scoring Solutions

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