Chaos Theory: The Scoring Solutions

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Chaos Theory: The Scoring Solutions

Post  Lore Weaver on Mon Oct 29, 2012 11:29 am

The problem with the Chaos book is supporting your choices with something scoring.

I think I've figured it out, but feel free to add to the discussion.

Scoring option 1)
20x 13pt marines (bolters!) with Icon of Vengeance, 2 flamers, Meltabombs on the Vet
= 270 + 35 + 10 + 5 = 320pts.
Notes: This unit puts out a lot of S4 shots, has 2 flamers for Wall of Death overwatch attacks, and with Krak Grenades (and vet with melta) can deal with a lot of things on the board. The trick here is that the unit is BIG and FEARLESS and is T4 with a 3+ save.

Scoring option 2)
Typhus Zombies. The Typhus army is neat, and big units of Zombies are fearless and have FNP. If you can get the zombies into terrain, they'll be very difficult to dislodge, and potentially quite inexpensive. (90pts for 20 zombies? Seems good)

Scoring option 3)
MSU Cultists. 10 Dudes with close combat weapons is 50 points. If you add a flamer, they're 55. Put 'em in reserve and walk up to a backfield objective. Potentially quite good for the non-pitched-battle deployments.

Scoring option 4)
Big-ish unit of Autogun cultists. 55pts for 10 with a Heavy Stubber, 110 for 20 with 2 Heavy Stubbers. They can hold an objective in terrain quite reasonably for a fairly average points cost.

Scoring option(s) 5) See the Cult Options as Troops thread for that discussion. I'm a big fan of 3/4 of those options, but you need to be exceedingly careful not to spend too many points. MSU Plague Marines, Thousand Sons, and Noise Marines are all good here. Medium sized units of 'Zerkers on Foot might work well, depending on what else you have in your list (Khorne dudes on Bikes might well be amazing... +2attacks on the charge, T5 3+ and a jink save)

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Re: Chaos Theory: The Scoring Solutions

Post  Guest on Mon Oct 29, 2012 12:31 pm

My scoring thoughts right now are death star kharn squad, Noise Marines (great for mid-feild) and Daemons (place anywhere

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Re: Chaos Theory: The Scoring Solutions

Post  Lore Weaver on Mon Oct 29, 2012 12:45 pm

What do you put in your Kharn squad? Robyn had a 10-man unit that I torrented down pretty quickly (he failed a 10" charge roll & re-roll).

That unit is a lot of points and is T4 with a 3+ save.

--

I'm in agreement with you on Noise marines, although if you over do it, you can't afford much else.

--

I'm not including Allies in the mix, but if you went that route, fun can be had. Nurgle stuff & Plaguebearers would be the way I'd go, if I were after scoring units. But if your bringing in allies, the ded-seksyness of Flamers of Tzeench is hard to ignore. I'd paint them up like Cybermen and say "Delete, Delete" when I put them on the board.

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Re: Chaos Theory: The Scoring Solutions

Post  Planes on Mon Oct 29, 2012 1:12 pm

I faced off against Epidemius and a 20 man zombie squad on top of a Scatter Field objective. Single zombie left holding the point at the end of the game resulted in a win for Matty, even with me bringing Str 7 spam to the field. Heck, the unit survived 5 Deathmarks with 2 attached Harbingers of Despair who were hunting Epi (wound on 2+, AP1 flamers). Zombies are INSANELY good, with their only notable weakness being that FNP clicks off at the Str 6 mark.

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Re: Chaos Theory: The Scoring Solutions

Post  System Commander on Mon Oct 29, 2012 1:33 pm

Unless... You buy the MoN as well.. But that goes against keeping em super cheap.

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Re: Chaos Theory: The Scoring Solutions

Post  Planes on Mon Oct 29, 2012 1:46 pm

I don't think you can put MoN on zombies, part of the whole "not being able to buy options" thing.

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Re: Chaos Theory: The Scoring Solutions

Post  System Commander on Mon Oct 29, 2012 1:52 pm

Oh yeah.. Your 100% right. Forgot about the most important rule

I had just seen a list with a squad of em with typhus and the mon.. But he might of been marking them so they could not be zombies.. But benefit from epidemius' bonus... Which actually doesnt make sense at all. Hmm

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Re: Chaos Theory: The Scoring Solutions

Post  judchic on Mon Oct 29, 2012 2:03 pm

Zombies are those who fell to the plague. Units marked by nurgle embraced it and get his boons.

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Re: Chaos Theory: The Scoring Solutions

Post  Planes on Mon Oct 29, 2012 2:10 pm

So, which do you want more is the question:

A) 3+ FNP, Armor ignoring attacks, and wounding on 2+ (I think?), but it all goes poof with Epi
or
B) 5+ FNP all the live long day

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Re: Chaos Theory: The Scoring Solutions

Post  judchic on Mon Oct 29, 2012 2:26 pm

The nurgle cultists don't get fnp. The tally improves fnp on squads that already have it.

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Re: Chaos Theory: The Scoring Solutions

Post  Rhaevyn on Mon Oct 29, 2012 2:47 pm

Typhus is actually fairly good. st6 T5. level 2 mastery pysker. and the nurgle powers are decent. He opens up both zombies and Plague Marines to be troops. I'm usually against putting 230 points into a single model, but hes got just about everything you want out of an HQ selection.

still not sure what Adam means about a death star. Kharne delivery service maybe, but deathstar? deathstars are usually feared beyond the one character and the most you can really do with kharn is put him in a unit with one champion, or insert him into a unit of terminators or chosen. Still dont really consider that a fearsome "Deathstar" -

Kharne himself is still really good in this edition, i admit. Hatred-Everything really makes for a lot of hits and less dead guys on your side. giving him a unit of cultists to suck up wounds is not a bad choice.


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Re: Chaos Theory: The Scoring Solutions

Post  Planes on Mon Oct 29, 2012 3:06 pm

Rhaevyn wrote: Typhus is actually fairly good. st6 T5. level 2 mastery pysker. and the nurgle powers are decent. He opens up both zombies and Plague Marines to be troops. I'm usually against putting 230 points into a single model, but hes got just about everything you want out of an HQ selection.

You left out the Termy Armor, Destroyer Hive, and the bitchin' Scythe.

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Re: Chaos Theory: The Scoring Solutions

Post  Timbo on Mon Oct 29, 2012 5:55 pm

20 Khorne-marked marines or berzerkers with Kharne is simply no good. Too easily countered, too matchup dependant. Too many eggs in one basket. It will win you games for sure, but will also lose you games before they even start.

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Re: Chaos Theory: The Scoring Solutions

Post  Rhaevyn on Mon Oct 29, 2012 6:53 pm

All the stuff you listed is included in "everything you want out of an HQ" :-)

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Re: Chaos Theory: The Scoring Solutions

Post  Rhaevyn on Tue Oct 30, 2012 11:49 am

The more i look at the book, the more i just lean towards 10 man CSM squads with double guns of some sort and a fearless stick. Or un-marked CSM squads to escort Fearless Lords. named or otherwise. seems you just have to rely on your special weapon loadouts and backfield shooting to take out hard targets, and outlast the squishy stuff. more bodies. more power armour, as many heavy guns as you can fit into the HS slot.

My only real issue with this is that if your going to play like this, why bother playing CSM at all, and just play Ultra/SW/BA/DA.

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Re: Chaos Theory: The Scoring Solutions

Post  Lore Weaver on Tue Oct 30, 2012 12:11 pm

Rhaevyn wrote:The more i look at the book, the more i just lean towards 10 man CSM squads with double guns of some sort and a fearless stick. Or un-marked CSM squads to escort Fearless Lords. named or otherwise. seems you just have to rely on your special weapon loadouts and backfield shooting to take out hard targets, and outlast the squishy stuff. more bodies. more power armour, as many heavy guns as you can fit into the HS slot.

My only real issue with this is that if your going to play like this, why bother playing CSM at all, and just play Ultra/SW/BA/DA.

I could get behind that. 10-man squad with a fearless stick, two plasma guns, and melta bombs is 200pts That unit's not bad in a Rhino for an additional 35 pts, plasma's can shoot out of the top.

With Chaos, you get Obliterators, Cheap Bikes with Options, Helbrutes, Spawn, and Cultitsts.

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Re: Chaos Theory: The Scoring Solutions

Post  Guest on Tue Oct 30, 2012 2:00 pm

True, it is not really a deathstar, its a scoring delivery service.

And it has been doing me well in every play test so far.

As for Fearless Stick, I fell a little gipped on it for 10 man squads.

A triple equip marine is 15, add in he's half of the fealress (25/10) and hes 17.5 points. Which isn't horrible, but tri-equip Noise Marine Dudes are only 18 points, have I 5, and can opt for some pretty snazzy wargear.

I'll take a Blast-Master / Doom-Siren combo over a pair of plasma guns. So I don't think I will be deploying many Basic CSM squads in rhinos this edition. Noise Marines are guna be my go to.

I will however need to keep experimenting with Kharn's delivery service. The marines work, and are about as resilient point for point as cultists, but still not sure. --New Thought, 5-9 Berzerks plus Kharn in a Land Raider? Bout the same cost as 20 man squad.

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Re: Chaos Theory: The Scoring Solutions

Post  Lore Weaver on Tue Oct 30, 2012 4:04 pm

canadin wrote:I will however need to keep experimenting with Kharn's delivery service. The marines work, and are about as resilient point for point as cultists, but still not sure. --New Thought, 5-9 Berzerks plus Kharn in a Land Raider? Bout the same cost as 20 man squad.

See, this I like, as you can get the drop on someone without getting shot at a bunch first. It's a lot of points in one place, but it's something that needs to be dealt with and avoided that you can plow down the center of the board and scare everything with.

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Re: Chaos Theory: The Scoring Solutions

Post  Lore Weaver on Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:52 am

I've changed my mind a bit.

10-marines 75+65
Meltabombs 5
Rhino 35
2xPlasma Guns 30

210 points total. Drive around with the Rhino, shoot plasma, at some point, disembark and double-tap with the bolters and plasma.

Potentially spend 15 points for a plasma pistol on the Champ, as you can replace the CCW and make him a "GUNSLINGER"

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Re: Chaos Theory: The Scoring Solutions

Post  Rhaevyn on Fri Nov 02, 2012 11:04 am

finally came across an article on the new CSM that isnt complete candy-coated shit.

Some of the stuff i dont 100% agree with, but at least AB gave the book a critical read. and gives some ideas for going forward.

http://www.3plusplus.net/2012/10/dukes-to-watch-out-for/


Stop talking about the Blastmaster as though it were the whole reason to have the unit. Blastmasters are just overpriced Missile Launchers that are good against MEQs. Killing 1-2 MEQs with that thing absolutely does not justify spending 150+pts on a squad, especially since you have to stay stationary to do it. Doom Sirens and Baleflamers and Burning Brands and a million other things can kill Marines, you donít need this unit trying it, too.

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Re: Chaos Theory: The Scoring Solutions

Post  Rhaevyn on Fri Nov 02, 2012 11:26 am

Lore Weaver wrote:I've changed my mind a bit.

10-marines 75+65
Meltabombs 5
Rhino 35
2xPlasma Guns 30

210 points total. Drive around with the Rhino, shoot plasma, at some point, disembark and double-tap with the bolters and plasma.

Potentially spend 15 points for a plasma pistol on the Champ, as you can replace the CCW and make him a "GUNSLINGER"

dont forget combi-melta or combi-plasma on the rhino. I cant tell you the number of times having the extra melta-shot and the double tap bolters on the rhino has turned the tide in games. the extra shots seem insignificant, but sometimes you just have to kill a couple more guardsmen to make them run, or sticking that one-shot melta into another transport changes the game significantly.

Havoc launchers @ 12 points are Money now too. TL st5 ap5 blast that extends the range of your SEARCHLIGHT on turn one can really change a game. Especially on the double plasma squad, which is better at range than say a double melta squad.

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Re: Chaos Theory: The Scoring Solutions

Post  Lore Weaver on Fri Nov 02, 2012 12:38 pm

I agree with the things you just said. I think it gives a shimmer of hope to Chaos players.

That's some mobile scoring and using Rhino's in the way that they're still quite effective. 12 points for the Havoc + 5 points for a Combi-Plasma // Melta seems good, as it can snap-fire the bolter and fire the Havoc if it moves 6, in addition to the 2 S7 AP2 shots from inside (assuming further than 24" away).

Combined with a Cultist Horde or a unit of 20 marines granted fearless by an attached Lord... starts looking tasty.

Then you just need some offensive punch from your fast attack (dragon), heavy support(oblits, fiends), and elites choices(brutes, termies)

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Re: Chaos Theory: The Scoring Solutions

Post  System Commander on Fri Nov 02, 2012 2:32 pm

Ive been trying to work a bit with chosen.

The abbadon tax is huge.. So you really have.to get him in and put em to work quickly. However, i really like the idea of having 5 scoring guys with a lascannon for 125 points.

You can get goofy and mini berserker them up.. 10 guys with 3 plasma guns and a couple power weapons is a decent shooting, assault and scoring unit. Gets a bit pricey but if you can put em in a rhino, hopefully get them to an objective and get to repel.

Not sold on the price of the khorne marked chosen.. But i like the 5 man scoring unit with special and heavy options.



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Re: Chaos Theory: The Scoring Solutions

Post  Lore Weaver on Fri Nov 02, 2012 2:38 pm

Back in the 3rd edition days, we played with "Tim Tech" squads, 5 guys with a Lascannon and a Plasma Gun, they rang in at 98 pts, if I remember correctly.

Would be 140 pts with Chosen, but you'd have an extra attack per dude, and an aspiring champion. Give the champ some melta bombs and that squads 145pts. Not horrible. (I wouldn't say "Good", but at least average)

You'd need Abbadon to be in a Landraider with something though. Maybe some mutilators marked with Khorne? Or 'zerkers? Abbadon can kill anything in close combat. He's quite scary.

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Re: Chaos Theory: The Scoring Solutions

Post  Timbo on Sat Nov 03, 2012 1:23 am

One of the myriad of problems with Chaos scoring is that the units are not really threatening or resilient. You can pay points to make them so, but it comes at a real premium. There is no value in upgrading your troops. The Chaos book does have some threatening units that will leap to the top of your opponent's target priority list. Virtually all of the fast attack and heavy support options are reasonably scary units (elites, not so much). If you want to make your scoring troops threatening or resilient, you will have less fast attack and heavy support stuff. Like, way less. But playing with non-threatening scoring units (for example, 10 naked cultists, or a horde of zombies) is dangerous also. Your opponent can basically ignore those selections until he has time or an opportunity to deal with them. It's almost like playing with a points handicap. He can kill those cultitsts whenever he wants, but is under no pressure to do so until turn 3, 4 or 5. The zombies deserve a special mention. They are resilient in certain matchups, but a lot of armies will have no trouble removing them. And they are points spent on zero threat.

A space marine tactical squad with triple melta is 185 points or so. It has the flexibility to combat squad if required and is very hard to remove. It can't be swept, and can combat tactics away from assaults, etc. Chaos has nothing like this available. 10 marines with 3 meltas (no multi-melta available) starts at 170 with no combat squads or combat tactics available. You can make them fearless (which is like ATSKNF, but way worse) for 25 points and all of a sudden you have a unit that is worse than a tactical squad for more points. The icons can be sniped also, which is awful. The cult troops are very expensive. Very, very expensive.

I hear Phil Kelly is doing the next Eldar book also. I hope he keeps Eldar Guardians at 8 points! Good call on that unit, Phil!


Last edited by Timbo on Sat Nov 03, 2012 1:27 am; edited 1 time in total

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