And So All is Chaos!

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Re: And So All is Chaos!

Post  Lore Weaver on Thu Sep 27, 2012 10:05 am

Rhaevyn wrote:can you shoot down a 3+/5++ dude with 4 wounds? i think you can!

It's not that hard.

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Re: And So All is Chaos!

Post  Aegwymourn on Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:37 am

Lore Weaver wrote:
Rhaevyn wrote:can you shoot down a 3+/5++ dude with 4 wounds? i think you can!

It's not that hard.

double sarcasm? me thinks so.

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Re: And So All is Chaos!

Post  judchic on Thu Sep 27, 2012 4:20 pm

Toughness 6 and if he dodges while flying he's shrouded for a 3+ cover save. That's not as easy to kill... And if it is t9 then I call bs on anything killing it easy.
Still getting sick of the negativity. Honestly, give the book a chance before mashing it...

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Re: And So All is Chaos!

Post  Aegwymourn on Thu Sep 27, 2012 4:30 pm

judchic wrote:Toughness 6 and if he dodges while flying he's shrouded for a 3+ cover save. That's not as easy to kill... And if it is t9 then I call bs on anything killing it easy.
Still getting sick of the negativity. Honestly, give the book a chance before mashing it...

+1

do i think it will be as ridiculous as GK or Necrons, no. Do i think it'll be worthless, no.

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Re: And So All is Chaos!

Post  System Commander on Thu Sep 27, 2012 4:44 pm

I dont mind people ranting or theory hammering things out.

People are gonna praise, people are gonna complain.. But i do like having this forum be as open and welcoming for things.

So lets just keep an open mind from both sides. I know one thing thats becoming apparent as more and more things leak out.. There is defnitely not that feelng of crazy game breaking units. Eek.. Remember when the gklak came out.. People couldnt beleive it.. But it was all true.

I cant find a single thing in the book i think is bonkers. The dragon was looking scary at 8 str 8 shots and a vectoe strike at str 10 .. But now pretty wimpy. Like most people.. I dont want to sink almost 200 points into a lightly armoured vehicle..

Things i like the look of that are costed correctly from what i see are forgefiends. I really think they're fantastic with the 2 hades guns. Armour weak.. Sure.. But keeping em back.. Maybe in cover and i think they are gonna be awesomw.

The other new stuff looks so so.. Im eager to see the hellbrute loadouts. Id be tempted to take two forgefiends, two hellbrutes with butchers and the rest berserkers. I just dont think i wanna pony up the cash for the forgefiends yet. Im gonna get a dragon first.. Test it out for awhile and see how i like it.



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Re: And So All is Chaos!

Post  Lord_Commander_Stash on Thu Sep 27, 2012 4:59 pm

Rhaevyn wrote:sorcerer nerfs hurt Sad BS4, 2W, 2A = big fail. How many chaos Psychic powers are whichfires?

the warpsmith has BS 5. go figure.

be interesting to see what models can take power scourges. Couple models with the Flail special rule could ruin a melee units day. It must be limited to walkers or fiends, its Str 8 ap2, and not unwieldy.

Its probably a typo

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Re: And So All is Chaos!

Post  Timbo on Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:28 pm

judchic wrote:Simple solution. If you don't like the book, don't play it.

If you don't like all the negativity, don't read this thread Wink Your suggestion is ridiculous for people who have invested huge amounts of time and money into their Chaos models. You realise that, right? I'm pretty sure you weren't being serious, but just in case.

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Re: And So All is Chaos!

Post  Lore Weaver on Thu Sep 27, 2012 9:10 pm

As a noise marine fanboi, I'm kinda stoaked. I've played a Slaneesh Noise Marine army three times, my current incarnation being my 3rd, and I built it in 3rd edition.

I played them twice in 2nd ed... back when they had *real* guitars! :-)

Anyway, this might be the best possible version of them. S8 AP3 blast that ignores cover (supplemented with Salvo 2/3 s4 ap5 ignores cover)? If I can take 2 in a unit of 5 (or the Slaneeshi 6), then I'll take 2-6 units of those guys, especially if I can take them as troops. Also... Dirge Casters are back, so all my "warp amp" conversions do things again. This time, no overwatch within 6"... take that, burna boyz in a battle wagon. From what I've seen, the unit of 5 is < 100pts nekkid.

---

I still like the forgefiend, but it depends on how cheap I can get one for. Besides some noise marine upgrade blisters, that might be the only thing I buy. Looks like it's got a 5+ invul on it's own, and you can give it some guns for ~135 ish points? Analogous to a rifleman dread, but with an invul save.

---

Jessie, some of us are extremely critical thinkers, and the "negativity" you're seeing is more part of the thought process. Sometimes one of us needs to say, "Hey, that blows chunks" to straighten us out a bit. It's all part of the theory hammer baby. Also, as Tim said, many of us have spent a *lot* of money on Chaos. I think my tally is near $1000 over my last 20 years of playing 40k. Tim is more. We have a right to be annoyed when a book comes out and dumps on our investment. *sniff* I remember the good 'ol days when I could have 3 doom sirens in a unit of 6 noise marines. Those were the days.

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Re: And So All is Chaos!

Post  judchic on Fri Sep 28, 2012 12:14 am

Timbo wrote:
judchic wrote:Simple solution. If you don't like the book, don't play it.

If you don't like all the negativity, don't read this thread Wink Your suggestion is ridiculous for people who have invested huge amounts of time and money into their Chaos models. You realise that, right? I'm pretty sure you weren't being serious, but just in case.

its just one of those things. I'm getting excited about the new book and I would rather it gave lots of options with nothing over the top rather than have the "must take" of each slot. i want to run units that were just bad in the old book like possessed and chosen and such, plus my 5 missile havoks will finally push past the oblits if they do have options for flak missiles. just keep an open mind, some things may function differently but still have a role on the table. daemon princes are more expensive but they were really undercosted last codex and with the changes to wings they will be both faster and harder to kill for lots of things (plus ws9!!!).

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Re: And So All is Chaos!

Post  Timbo on Fri Sep 28, 2012 1:02 am

I'm not saying a want a "must take" in each slot. Look at Grey Knights and Necrons. Those codexes have lots of playable (some might say too playable Wink ) options in each slot. The thing that is making me scratch my head about this codex (so far) is that I'm not seeing any improvements over the lacklustre previous codex. There doesn't really seem to be a lot of change, and there doesn't seem to be a lot of value. And if that's the case, then why the new codex? If I can build a better 6th edition list out of the previous codex I'm going to be very pissed off, as will the other Chaos vets around here I'm sure. Obviously there are some new units so they have new incredibly expensive models to sell. And they took care to make all of the decent units from 5th crappy now so people won't be able to run their old lists. Those things go without saying. But if Chaos and Cult Marines basically have the same costs and capabilities (more or less), along with some new crappy overcosted choices that aren't really choices at all, what's the point?

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Re: And So All is Chaos!

Post  Rhaevyn on Fri Sep 28, 2012 9:25 am

re: DP's

Just because a model was undercosted in one edition does not mean that you have to flop the other way in the next edition. Also, wings are too expensive, both in the daemons codex and now in the CSM one. FMC's are not nearly as good as Mech flyers. Its an unsupported suicide trip for most.

That being said: with the way the codex has changed and the removal of all real daemons over the last two codexes, I'm surprised the daemon prince is even listed in the HQ section, and isn't just an anomaly listed under the chaos boon table, along with the chaos spawn model. If GW had some balls, that is how they should have done it. I foresee too much outcry from the masses though.. and GW caved and kept it in. As it is, we get to keep the entry, and never use it, as its an over-costed body that stands out like a sore thumb from the rest of the codex. The move from the 2nd Edition CHAOS codex.. and the 7Th edition Chaos Space Marines codex allied to a Chaos Daemons Codex is almost complete.

A player that pics up this codex and starts today is going to have a much different looking army than one who started 10 years ago. 10 years ago chaos was about mutation and daemons ripping their way out of chaos champions randomly. it was about chaos champions riding into combat on a Juggernaut, leading a unit of berzerkers and having a unit of bloodletters show up next to them to help out with the charge. Today's chaos space marines is more about specialized marines, Daemon engines that used to be actual vehicles come to sentience... But all still recognizable as Marines and Mech.

I'm not adverse to this concept. i just wish GW had the conviction to just DO IT, and no go half way.

I'll find a way to win with the dex, I'll still play it. I've invested too much time and money not to. But don't expect me not to complain when the next 4 Marine codex's get stupid with options, under-costed utility or just plane coolness... all of which it appears Phil Kelly forgot when he started on this book.(where is the guy who wrote the space wolf dex kelly?.... Where Is he??)

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Re: And So All is Chaos!

Post  miv305 on Fri Sep 28, 2012 10:25 am

You guys are going overboard...

What is not cool/great utility about a 135 Forgefiend that has Demonic Possession, a 5++ save, It will not die and 2 Hades cannons? They're straight up better then GK Rifleman dreads when you also account for their might ability which lets them reroll failed armor pens once per game. My Psyflemen is 135 pts too but doesn't have an invulnreable save, doesn't have "it will not die" and doesn't get to reroll armor pens and yet people point to that unit like it's the greatest thing since sliced bread!

The Helldrake looks like a decent buy as well, with a Vector strike and a Hades Cannon it's going to be good at taking out flyers and/or light armor.

Their Warpsmith's look amazing, ruining your opponents aegis line, etc. is a pretty amazing ability and he also gives you a 2nd chance at recovering wounds on your aforementioned Forgefiends.

Marines are 13pts a model (14 for +1 Ld and hatred vs 75% of your opponents), that's a pretty amazing buy.

I could go on but I just wanted to toss a few things out there that make me think that the glass isn't half empty!

P.S. Not sure why people are down on 5th edition items, Plague Marines didn't lose anything (actually gained plague knives) and I haven't read anything about Obliterators not being just as good as before.

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Re: And So All is Chaos!

Post  Rhaevyn on Fri Sep 28, 2012 11:20 am

Oblits are good. Just more tricksy. cant plasma cannon spam them every turn, because you have to rotate weapons... anything that reduces options = worse, yes? Still good. just tricksy. some crazy rumor that they can take MoN for 2 points. t5 oblits again? sign. me. up.

Marines are 16 points a model because they just come with bolters and bolt pistols. it costs dollahs for the extra CC weapon. so your paying more points for the same dudes... AND your mandated to pay for a sarj. I'm not saying that they are bad. i'm saying they are strictly more expensive than before. That being said, marks are paid for on a per model basis now, and you can give them a banner. so, more expensive.. but better options. Like buying an Audi over a VW.

Warpsmith is good. model is great. rules are great. wish he didn't clog up the bloated HQ section.. but , yeah, I'm a fan. Same with the dark apostle.... except all that stuff about the model being great.

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Re: And So All is Chaos!

Post  Timbo on Fri Sep 28, 2012 1:42 pm

Wait a minute, Forgefiends are 135 points with weapons? And a Defiler is 195? That can't be right. Warpsmiths look nifty and all, but let's not forget that they are 110 points and an Aegis line is 50. In the end you're left with a non-psyker, non-fighter HQ choice. He may have some utility, but he looks pretty meh to me. @Mike V: I'm not all doom and gloom, I'm sure there will be some usable stuff. It's just that so far it looks little better than the old book. That's what's chaffing my a$$. Strange to see you sticking up for the Dragon though. It looks like the worst/most overcosted flier yet released, no?

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Re: And So All is Chaos!

Post  Lore Weaver on Fri Sep 28, 2012 2:02 pm

Timbo wrote: Strange to see you sticking up for the Dragon though. It looks like the worst/most overcosted flier yet released, no?

Nah... that'd be a Burna-Bomma with a full complement of missiles. Comes in at 185 points for an AV10 flier.

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Re: And So All is Chaos!

Post  miv305 on Fri Sep 28, 2012 2:25 pm

I thought the forgefiend that's 200 points is one that has 3 ectoplasm cannons (str 8 ap2, blast) whereas the base one was 135. I don't think they have any CC ability and that may be why they're so cheap compared to Defilers...

I like the Helldrake as it has some flexibility since it has Vector Strike (d3+1 s7 ap2) which the other flyers don't have. It can actually hurt something that moves within 18 inches of it. I think it's better then the Storm Talon and 2 of the 3 Ork ones (not the Dakkajet of course).

I'm really on the fence about starting a Slaanesh army as I think there's a lot of neat things in the book and you can top it off with taking demons as allies. Allies will get you mini-lash (courtesy of a herald) and some other assault based gribblies.

@Mike B - Chaos Marines are not 16 points, they're 13 with two options that can make them 16 pts each. I also have no idea why you're upset about the mandatory Sgt, you pay a whopping 5 pts for him. Rumour has it that the base squad is 70 pts for 5 guys with extras clocking in at 13 pts each, that's an amazing deal imo especially when you compare that to the 90pts 5 Tac Marines come in at.

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Re: And So All is Chaos!

Post  judchic on Fri Sep 28, 2012 2:55 pm

Think of it this way,
Old 5 guys from 15 each (75pts) champ 15 putting 10m at165pts
New 5 guys from 13 each(65pts) champ 5 putting 10m at 135pts
Paying the 3 pts for close combat weapon and leadership+1 and hatred marines increases it to 165 for 10 with champ. It's the same cost except now you pick if you want the extra stuff and at same cost they are better.
Wait am I allowed to post points on the forum?

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Re: And So All is Chaos!

Post  Lore Weaver on Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:00 pm

judchic wrote:Wait am I allowed to post points on the forum?

No legal reason you're not allowed to. We do it all the time in the army lists sub-forum.

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Re: And So All is Chaos!

Post  Timbo on Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:04 pm

miv305 wrote:I thought the forgefiend that's 200 points is one that has 3 ectoplasm cannons (str 8 ap2, blast) whereas the base one was 135. I don't think they have any CC ability and that may be why they're so cheap compared to Defilers...

I like the Helldrake as it has some flexibility since it has Vector Strike (d3+1 s7 ap2)

You might be right, and if that's the case the Forgefiend is looking much better. Vector strike is AP3 though.

@Mark, we all know the only Ork flier is the Dakkajet Wink

@Judchic Why would you not be allowed to make points on a forum for open discussion? What are you trying to say?

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Re: And So All is Chaos!

Post  Roland on Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:21 pm

judchic wrote:Think of it this way,
Old 5 guys from 15 each (75pts) champ 15 putting 10m at165pts
New 5 guys from 13 each(65pts) champ 5 putting 10m at 135pts
Paying the 3 pts for close combat weapon and leadership+1 and hatred marines increases it to 165 for 10 with champ. It's the same cost except now you pick if you want the extra stuff and at same cost they are better.
Wait am I allowed to post points on the forum?

I took the liberty of contacting GW legal.

You should hearing choppers from the enforcement division shortly, was nice knowing you.

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Re: And So All is Chaos!

Post  Rhaevyn on Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:41 pm

I dont want champs in my squads so that warbosses cant run in. Challenge. Kill the sarge. Stay in combat. Slay the squad on my turn and then run off to do something else the next turn. I cant even decline the challenge anymore because of the new rules. Sarg isnt doing crap all for the squad except for making it more expensive and giving the enemy a turn to avoid getting shot up.

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Re: And So All is Chaos!

Post  Lore Weaver on Fri Sep 28, 2012 4:08 pm

I was going to say, "Decline the challenge", but you're not allowed to... *Nelson Laugh*

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Re: And So All is Chaos!

Post  Roland on Fri Sep 28, 2012 5:19 pm

Lost. Why can't he decline the challenge? Seems pointless not to,

1) He decline and can't attack. Warboss kills buddies, then him.

2) He accepts and it follows as Mike B pointed out.

Lose-Lose, unless you have an HQ or a huge number of dudes in your squad.

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Re: And So All is Chaos!

Post  Rhaevyn on Fri Sep 28, 2012 6:02 pm

Champion of Chaos: Character must issue and accept challenges. When this model kills an enemy character, roll on the chart of i "never got so lucky in my life rewards"... i mean the Chaos Boon Table. See Below.

The ideal way for a warboss or other suitable melee beast to dealt with by the squad is to have him kill several of them and then chase them down.Warboss/CC monster ends up outside of combat... and get shot in the Face.

I know it sounds counter-intuitive to Want to lose combat and run away/get run down, its the only viable strategy for dealing with Nob squads, Nid monsters... Other CSM Daemon princes... Anything from the GK codex... Because CSM do not get ATSKNF, the above tactic is a bread and butter staple.


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Re: And So All is Chaos!

Post  Timbo on Fri Sep 28, 2012 7:31 pm

Yeah, maybe keeping the Chaos marines cheap and plentiful is the way to go. It's much easier to rally in this edition. If you're fielding 100 marines an extra 3 points per model really starts to add up. It will be interesting to see the new rules for Fabio Bile as well.

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Re: And So All is Chaos!

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