Tau Drones are not characters

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Re: Tau Drones are not characters

Post  Planes on Mon Aug 06, 2012 6:13 pm

I'd say a simpler way to view it that, given that character shows up in brackets, such as "Infantry(Character)" or "Biker(Character)" etc, Character is not a type, but a sub-type. And it says that the type is conferred, with no reference made to sub-type. Sort of like the whole super-type/type/sub-type thing in Magic: the Gathering.

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Re: Tau Drones are not characters

Post  Darksfear on Thu Aug 09, 2012 10:38 pm

Ok, I'm just going to start off by saying I have ABSOLUTLY ZERO problem with drones being ruled as not characters. That being said, I'm definatly feeling a "douchebag" tag being stapled to my forehead for even concieving of the notion. So I would just like to make it pefectly clear as to why I believe the rules are in accordance with such a thought process.

If you direct your attention to page 410 of the 6th ed codex, they will have a listing at the top of the page for unit types. In the second paragraph of this listing, character appears. This means that character IS in fact a unit type. For those who believe that because it is in the second paragraph, perhaps it is a subtype and therefore does not work, the first unit type in the second paragraph is a jet pack unit. I have never seen anybody ever argue that drones do not gain the jet pack unit type, so that argument does not hold water in my opinion.

Once again, I am not trying to contradict the ruling, I'd just appreciate a little less hatred over the fact that I did in fact believe drones are characters in the very first 6th ed game I ever played (and not even a league game I might add, just for fun).


On a side note, man I wish I had seen this thread before going to the den today lol. Man was I set upon. Felt like I was gonna get strung up by an angry mob lol.


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Re: Tau Drones are not characters

Post  System Commander on Thu Aug 09, 2012 11:26 pm

I can understand the confusion.

Now watch Tyson.. GW will come ou with a faq in a week and say.. what are you guys talking about, of course drones are characters. it says so in the book.. Smile

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Re: Tau Drones are not characters

Post  dusktiger on Fri Aug 10, 2012 12:15 am

lol.

so i'm looking at the tau codex, and since the #1 excuse to clear up misunderstandings is "what does the book say?" and "codex trumps BRB" here's what it states:

  • according to the Tau codex, "independent character" is a special rule. its not a unit type. so drones cannot gain character status.
  • Shield Drones always take on the armour save value, and toughness value of the model that's purchased them. It will also have a 4+ invul save. to shorten it: Shield drones are always toughness 4, 3+ save/4++ invul save. unless they bought Iridium armour, then it becomes a 2+ armour save/4++ invul save.
  • the only unit type listed out of the models (not including vehicles in this) that can purchase a shield drone, is Unit Type: Jump Infantry (jet packs)


i believe the ch=character in appendix 2 of the BRB6, is there to allow readers to know with a quick glance what's allowed to trade wounds off to its attached squad via the LO,S! rules.

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Re: Tau Drones are not characters

Post  Rhaevyn on Fri Aug 10, 2012 12:21 am

I just wish everything wasnt just a "new and exciting ways to abuse wound allocation" discussion. Because that's all this is.

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Re: Tau Drones are not characters

Post  Darksfear on Fri Aug 10, 2012 8:58 am

dusktiger wrote:lol.

so i'm looking at the tau codex, and since the #1 excuse to clear up misunderstandings is "what does the book say?" and "codex trumps BRB" here's what it states:

  • according to the Tau codex, "independent character" is a special rule. its not a unit type. so drones cannot gain character status.
  • Shield Drones always take on the armour save value, and toughness value of the model that's purchased them. It will also have a 4+ invul save. to shorten it: Shield drones are always toughness 4, 3+ save/4++ invul save. unless they bought Iridium armour, then it becomes a 2+ armour save/4++ invul save.
  • the only unit type listed out of the models (not including vehicles in this) that can purchase a shield drone, is Unit Type: Jump Infantry (jet packs)


i believe the ch=character in appendix 2 of the BRB6, is there to allow readers to know with a quick glance what's allowed to trade wounds off to its attached squad via the LO,S! rules.

Ok, Ok, Ok. I was gonna let sleeping dogs lie, but I must say this is driving me nuts. Over and over and over and over again people have been saying that I am implying that drones are "independant characters". I have not ONCE said this. They are not. They exist in their own little state of limbo that is the only non-independant character model in all of 40k that can join other squads.

What I have said is that attached drones are "characters". Note, that independant character is a special rule that is covered on page 39 in the special rules section of the rulebook, and characters are covered on page 63, the characters section of the rulebook. They are 2 different things. Now, all independant characters also happen to come with the character rules, but it does not work the other way around. I swear you guys are gonna start saying squad vets are independant characters all of a sudden.

Now to cover the other two off points here, number one. You just said that you should go with what the codex says. Yes, you CAN imply that because the only units that can take drones are infantry and jet packs, that they are the only types it gets. But that only works if you ignore the exact word for word from the codex. Unit Type: As Owner. Word For Word.

Point 2: In the appendix in question there is a little notation at the bottom for "other" added in order to imply extra rules. If they wanted display a symbol to let you know they have character rules, they would have followed suit and put it below the unit type listings, not in them. In addition, if they really wanted "character" to be a special rule, they would have put it in the special rules section, right along side "independant characters". Heck, even nightfighting has a tab in there just to tell you to go look at the mission deployment section. Thats how far they went with that chapter. I'm pretty sure if they wanted Characters in there, it would be in there.

Btw, I do apologize if I come off argumentative or angry. Its been a long day and that fact that I missed the first half of this conversation so I could not correct the independant character thing is giving me a headache. I am already happy not using the character rules on drones because it makes other players unhappy. I just don't like having my words twisted like that.


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Re: Tau Drones are not characters

Post  System Commander on Fri Aug 10, 2012 9:30 am

Its a goofy thing.. I dont know why people are still harping on you especially since you agreed to not use them as characters.

I think we can let this one sleep now. One of the many things that need a re-faqing.

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Re: Tau Drones are not characters

Post  dusktiger on Fri Aug 10, 2012 9:49 am

thats np tyson, im just writing it down here for those that havent ever read the tau codex before; in fact last night was the first time i've ever read it myself.

and i also see you agreeing to go with the rest of us on treating them as non-character models. i dont think anyone else here is ignoring that either.

also, even if they 'were' characters, it wouldn't matter; LO,S! can only be done once; you can't use it multiple times to move it away. a LO,S! roll can only be rolled on that specific wound roll once, and then it either passes and goes on another model, or fails and the character has to roll the armor save. character status or not, you'd never 'want' to take the wounds away from the drones anyhow, would you?

i've never seen you play your tau, but if it was me, and reading how wounding works in 6th, i'd always make a bubble around my commander with the shield drones and then LO,S! doesn't even matter cause now a little frying pan with 2+/4++ is taking all the wounds.

people could also argue over the character part too though; when you lookup unit type in 6th, it tells you in the initial paragraphs before detailing any unit types, that characters are a whole other thing entirely and will be described in a different section of the book. so one could infer from that, that character is not a unit type.

the only example i could give is a sergeant in a marine squad. these are treated as characters for LO,S! rolls. but they do not have it stated anywhere on them they are characters. they're unit type: infantry. i know these are different units from different codices, but bear with me a second: the drones are unit type: owner. so say space marines could buy a shield drone for their sergeants; cool. really cool, actually hmmm. if the drone is unit type: owner, then cause a tactical sergeant bought it, it would be a unit type: infantry, T 4, sv 4+. an assault sergeant would make him unit type: jump infantry, T4, sv 3+. and a terminator sergeant would make him unit type: infantry, T4, sv 2+.
all of these are treated as a character for LO,S! but none are characters or say character anywhere.

looking at the Tau codex last night, i didnt see anywhere on those shas'o shas'el and shadowsun entries where it claimed they were characters either; the only mention of any characteryness was the special rule stating independent character status. though the layout of how they present models in that codex is a far cry from the layout newer codices have since used to keep things clear and legible, so maybe the plain old 'character' was in there somewhere and i missed it; but i did try to read it through carefully to see if maybe you played it right the first time.


in the end, the only reason everyone's jumping at the throat about this is because they're still getting used to the way 6th works and no one wants to see some sort of potential abuse of the wound allocation system within a month of its release.

that said, mark's thread about rules you may have missed, i posted a rundown of how LO,S! works, so if anyone reads it, it's pretty clear you cant abuse it. i wont rewrite why in here, just go read the explanation in the post.

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Re: Tau Drones are not characters

Post  Roland on Fri Aug 10, 2012 10:38 am

Mike: Sgts are characters. There is no confusion. pg 411, second column, 3rd row down.

Why are you arguing stuff isnt a character b/c it isnt in the codex? we havent had a 6th ed codex yet.

Regarding tau.... shas'vre, shas'el, shas'o crisis suits are all characters. If you want to argue
Shadowsun and Farsight aren't characters, fine. I see no entrys for ANY unique "named" characters, so they're all just regular units w/o LoS.

Tyson: I can see where you are coming from. By extension, you'd expect the bodyguard to not have (char) status, as they're there to protect the Commander just like the drones. But they ALL have (char) status as well. Confusing. (I think this is along the lines of the Nobs/Paladin thing. They intended to only have 'leader' types as characters, not whole units, unless its a crap-load of IC's.) (This isn't totally reading as I'm intending it, I think you've got a valid point, and they very obviously need to FAQ it to clear up the confusion, one way or the other)

All: I think the Wheaton rule applies all around in this (not just Tau drones, but Paladistars, and Nobs, etc).

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Re: Tau Drones are not characters

Post  Darksfear on Fri Aug 10, 2012 11:30 am

I am absolutely in agreement there. Hopefully the nob/shas'vre/paladin thing gets the FAQ it so desperatly needs. On the topic of FAQs btw, Farsight and Shadowsun benefit from the character rule as bestowed upon them by the Tau FAQ.

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Re: Tau Drones are not characters

Post  Roland on Fri Aug 10, 2012 11:36 am

Ah, was going by BRB, I believe all the "unique" characters were handled in individual FAQs.

As a note, from my own experience and from others saying so (IRL and on the net) Those units are typically teh ones you see the "roll tons of dice for little effect" syndrome that slows things down. FAQing them should fix that.

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Re: Tau Drones are not characters

Post  Lore Weaver on Fri Aug 10, 2012 11:58 am

Sorry for going "Full Asshole" on you Tyson, you didn't deserve it. I just heard you doing that and thought, "Wow, that rule interpretation, which is sketchy at best, will lead to an un-fun game." I didn't need to rouse-the-rabble against your favour.

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Re: Tau Drones are not characters

Post  System Commander on Fri Aug 10, 2012 12:08 pm

Don't you know Mark.. You never go full asshole.

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Re: Tau Drones are not characters

Post  Lore Weaver on Fri Aug 10, 2012 12:18 pm

Indeed Robin.

This is covered in the Tau FAQ already:

On Page 2 of the FAQ, under Crisis Suits and Stealth Suits | "[suits] are Jetpack Infantry, as are any drones attached to them"

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Re: Tau Drones are not characters

Post  Roland on Fri Aug 10, 2012 1:35 pm

Ok so you've got a Crisis Commander, w/ 2 bodyguards, all with 2 shield drone each.

All are Jetpack infantry.

All the Crisis Suits are Characters.

The Commander is an IC, but can't voluntarily leave the unit.

Edit: WOAH WOAH WOAH!

Same page as what Mark ref'd:

Pg 32- Commander, Unit Type.
Change unit type to Infanty (Jetpack, Character)

pg 32- Crisis Battlesuit Bodyguard Team
Change unit type to Infanty (Jetpack)

So only the commander is a character.

Digging a bit more, Orks;

No changes to Nobs

GK:
No changes to Palidins

I haz a sad.

Way to keep things consistant there GW.





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Re: Tau Drones are not characters

Post  Darksfear on Fri Aug 10, 2012 2:37 pm

Thats good to know. Thanks for finding that. Missed it when I went through the first time. I guess that brings up the question as to whether or not the commanders drones counting as characters is really overpowered now considering only one member of the squad gets to be a character lol.

Oh, and Mark. No hard feelings. I just wanted to get this cleared up before I found myself shunned with nobody wanting to play against me. I love the game, I enjoy playing with you all, and it would be a real shame for something like this to wreck the whole experience.

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Re: Tau Drones are not characters

Post  gluvzer on Fri Aug 10, 2012 2:44 pm

I wouldn't say overpowered. Sure it gives the ability for wound distribution, it's only 3 guys out of the unit though. Not the same as Nobz or Paladins.

Drone issuing a challenge is funny.

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Re: Tau Drones are not characters

Post  Roland on Fri Aug 10, 2012 3:17 pm

ACCEPT CHALLENGE?

<ABORT/RETRY/FAIL>

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Re: Tau Drones are not characters

Post  gluvzer on Fri Aug 10, 2012 3:39 pm

Very "Cinematic" too!

The epic struggle on the hilltop between Captain Lysander and...... the shield Drone.

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Re: Tau Drones are not characters

Post  Planes on Fri Aug 10, 2012 3:48 pm

I'd be all for facing off against some Tau, haven't had a chance to play against that race yet.

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Re: Tau Drones are not characters

Post  Guest on Fri Aug 10, 2012 5:20 pm

It is very true that the BRB 6th ed does specifically state characters as a new unit type, with the special abilities of challenges, precise shots and precise strikes.

then according to the Tau Codex, it states that drones get all types of their owner, Ie: Jetpack, Character.

So accoding to da rulz, the drones are characters. I myself thought it was silly, but not that horrible.

The silly thing of the whole unit is Eldrad, he is OP (dont worry I use him too), attaching a Tau commander is just a cherry on top

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Re: Tau Drones are not characters

Post  Darksfear on Fri Aug 10, 2012 11:27 pm

Planes wrote:I'd be all for facing off against some Tau, haven't had a chance to play against that race yet.

My Tau are always ready for battle if you want.

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Re: Tau Drones are not characters

Post  Deadlytoaster on Sat Aug 11, 2012 12:56 am

Darksfear wrote:
Planes wrote:I'd be all for facing off against some Tau, haven't had a chance to play against that race yet.

My Tau are always ready for battle if you want.

My Eldar may have to take you up on that Smile

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Re: Tau Drones are not characters

Post  Darksfear on Sat Aug 11, 2012 9:05 am

I'm free pretty much any day that isn't a saturday. Though I suppose we should try to get the matchmaking posts out of the Q&A forum lol. Send a PM my way or hit me up in the thunderdome if you feel like setting up a date.

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Re: Tau Drones are not characters

Post  Guest on Sat Aug 11, 2012 11:08 am

I just had an idea for maybe reducing the sillyness of all character units locally...

Now I havnt put too much thought into this, so I dont know all the implications it makes, but here I go::

For all character Units ie: Nobz, Paladins, Warlocks, what if you nominate ONE model in that unit as the leader and ONLY that model retains character status.

Kind of like how in the movie "The Expendables" they form and kick ass awesome full character unit, but Stallone is CLEARLY the main character.

We could actually call it the "Main Character" house rule.

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Re: Tau Drones are not characters

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