Dreadnaughts = Bad?

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Dreadnaughts = Bad?

Post  gluvzer on Fri Jul 06, 2012 9:58 am

I had my first game of 6th last night. One thing that really stood out for me (even though nothing of this sort happened in our game and I took 2) is how fragile Dread's are now. They die to 3 glances. 10 tactical marines have the potential to wreck it in the first round of close combat especially if serg is packing a fist or even a melta bomb. A unit with haywire grenades assaulting, Yowza!

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Re: Dreadnaughts = Bad?

Post  Lore Weaver on Fri Jul 06, 2012 10:01 am

I'm a big fan of the 2 skorcha deff dred now.

I think they're still viable, picking your targets is tough now though. I suppose Krak grenades...

Switching to Iron Clads? I guess the AV13 vs AV12 is kinda a big deal now.

Rifleman dreads are still cool, aren't they? They'll get suppressed less and can get a cover save a bit easier?

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Re: Dreadnaughts = Bad?

Post  gluvzer on Fri Jul 06, 2012 10:05 am

Yah, I agree Ironclads are prob the way to go now. But speaking for the basic Dreadnaught, hth is just not an option anymore I think, even vet guardsmen can at least win combat in the first round with it if they assault.

Riflemans lurking on the edges probably still have a place.

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Re: Dreadnaughts = Bad?

Post  Lore Weaver on Fri Jul 06, 2012 10:09 am

Tau Fire Warriors with their Haywire grenades? Harlequins... Eldar in general... way more options for dealing with vehicles & walkers.

I'll be pleased to run with Stalkers still (due to Heavy Flamer overwatch mitigating issues, and AV13).

I agree that the DCCW & Melta Dred just isn't *as* good as it used to be.

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Re: Dreadnaughts = Bad?

Post  Rhaevyn on Fri Jul 06, 2012 10:54 am

Hull points are death to mech lists.
the AV's are too low and the HP's are too few on Rhinos, Dreads, pretty much anything that isnt a flyer. moving glances from suppression to wreckage changes everything. Sad

The future is dudes footslogging accross a battlefield firing wildly at the air trying to get a lucky shot on a jetfighter...

hmm sounds like the Iraq war.

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Re: Dreadnaughts = Bad?

Post  Lore Weaver on Fri Jul 06, 2012 11:00 am

Mike, that's why I like the shooty walkers. They're more guaranteed to do what they do for the first half of the game, but less likely to make it till the end.

Trukks are more survivable than before, as the glances don't hurt them and they have 3 HP's. Rhino's... not sure yet.

Skimmers are generally more survivable than before, as the Jink save gives them a 33%-50% chance to completely ignore any shot, and again, glances don't suppress them.

I think the new meta will be balanced lists. You'll want to have some fast attack and heavy support choices on the off chance that they're scoring. You'll want transports to deploy troops in a forward position, and vehicles to bring reliable fire support for the first couple turns of the game, before things get dirty on turn 3/4 when most things are in hand-to-hand (unless your both playing shooty lists).

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Re: Dreadnaughts = Bad?

Post  Guest on Fri Jul 06, 2012 12:20 pm

One thing that really stood out for me (even though nothing of this sort happened in our game and I took 2) is how fragile EVERY VEHICLE IN THE GAME IS now. They die to 2-3 glances. 10 tactical marines have the potential to wreck it in the first round of close combat especially if serg is packing a fist or even a melta bomb. A unit with haywire grenades assaulting, Yowza!

I think vehicles are far too vulnerable. I may be dropping them entirely from my proposed list.

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Re: Dreadnaughts = Bad?

Post  Rhaevyn on Fri Jul 06, 2012 12:42 pm

My lists just keep getting more shooty, not more balanced.

Overwatch.snapshots. flyers, hull points, disembarking silliness.

I'll just stand beside this tree and shoot my gun, thanks.

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Re: Dreadnaughts = Bad?

Post  Aegwymourn on Fri Jul 06, 2012 8:29 pm

Rhaevyn wrote:My lists just keep getting more shooty, not more balanced.

Overwatch.snapshots. flyers, hull points, disembarking silliness.

I'll just stand beside this tree and shoot my gun, thanks.

I am worried that is what a lot of this edition is going to turn into. I have only played one game so far, but with just reading the rule book assault armies are going to have a much harder time.

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Re: Dreadnaughts = Bad?

Post  Dom.0 on Fri Jul 06, 2012 9:47 pm

speeking of hull points i cant rember witch pages have the complet vehical list and wepons list on them.

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Re: Dreadnaughts = Bad?

Post  gluvzer on Fri Jul 06, 2012 10:13 pm

Dom.0 wrote:speeking of hull points i cant rember witch pages have the complet vehical list and wepons list on them.

Ok, so look in your rulebook. It's in the new one if you have it.

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Re: Dreadnaughts = Bad?

Post  Dom.0 on Fri Jul 06, 2012 10:18 pm

ya i did but i cant seam to find the page and yes i checked the index

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Re: Dreadnaughts = Bad?

Post  Roland on Sat Jul 07, 2012 7:14 am

Its in the Appendices.

About, page 410

Or to keep it simple, everything is 3 HP, except Sentinels, which are 2 each.

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Re: Dreadnaughts = Bad?

Post  dusktiger on Sat Jul 07, 2012 9:14 am

if vehicles and dreads are gonna suck that much, it just makes me glad i decided on building a battle company and start on contemptor dreads last year. i'll have everything i need to be a footy list that hits hard.

though on the flip side, my bike army looks like it got a boost from reading some of their changes.

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Re: Dreadnaughts = Bad?

Post  Roland on Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:11 pm

Its not so much that Vehicles suck.... it's just different.

Per round, they are probably more resilient.

Per game, they are more fragile.

I'd expect most vehicles to be popped by the end of the game, if not by turn 4, but until they are popped they are likely doing something.

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Re: Dreadnaughts = Bad?

Post  Gain on Sat Jul 07, 2012 2:35 pm

Roland wrote:Its not so much that Vehicles suck.... it's just different.

Per round, they are probably more resilient.

Per game, they are more fragile.

I'd expect most vehicles to be popped by the end of the game, if not by turn 4, but until they are popped they are likely doing something.

Glances not doing anything is awesome. Land raiders got a big boost from this.

I don't think it will be to bad with a few minor changes to usual lists.

If I run dreads it will probably be rifleman.


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Re: Dreadnaughts = Bad?

Post  Spamus Eatus on Sat Jul 07, 2012 3:03 pm

The really light armor (trukks, raiders) still go down to harsh language, but it's not like they didn't before. Even a glance or 2 on those won't do very much, unlike before where a glance meant you were at least stunned due to the chart mechanics. The new rules benefit the heavy tanks the most. Your gun tanks can consistently do stuff through the game, even if it's simply moving and snapfiring. Also weapon destroyed is randomized, making gun tanks that much better as well. And of course close-up melta is still king of anti tank BUT with new wounding rules it makes it a bit trickier to employ. I'm really starting to see how all the rules of 6th are interacting with each other and I like it so far.

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Re: Dreadnaughts = Bad?

Post  Guest on Sat Jul 07, 2012 3:54 pm

Gain wrote:Glances not doing anything is awesome. Land raiders got a big boost from this.

Not doing anything except removing hull points... If you shot a Wraithlord and did a wound, would you say the attack was "not doing anything"? I think not.

Hull points are perfectly equivalent to Wounds. When a model runs out of them, it's dead.

A vehicle is, in 6th edition, just a T6 to T10 Monstrous Creature with no armour save whatsoever, and between 2 and 4 wounds. Vehicles won't make it to turn 4 unless the come on from reserves. Vehicles are actually more fragile than this, because Monstrous Creatures don't have a chance to instantly disappear whenever an enemy rolls more than they need to wound one.

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Re: Dreadnaughts = Bad?

Post  Roland on Sat Jul 07, 2012 8:43 pm

Godhead: you are absolutely correct, the point is now you can't suppress them.

In 5th, I have had Preds stunned/shaken/immobilized the entire game, but not taken out.

In 6th, that Pred will be gone by the end of turn 3, but for 3 turns it will be doing something.

To put it another way, a unit of Nobs take a wound, this does not affect how effective they are at that moment.

I think Mech list are basically dead in the water, but there is a place for it. I think Drop Pod armies just got a lot more viable. maybe Kraus can let us know how its working out for him.

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Re: Dreadnaughts = Bad?

Post  smackman on Sat Jul 07, 2012 9:20 pm

Played two games with orks so far, I don't see any issues with this edition so far. It's just bloody as hell, combats are decisive and shooting is devastating. This edition compared to 5th is like when I switched from an elite chaos marines list to a foot slogging ork army, stuff is going to die now, and quickly. Mech lists are definitely still in, all three armies I play are all mech and after only two games I still have confidence in the vehicles, they die easier then before for sure but vehicles in 5th were way over powered imo.

And yeah Beau the drop pod list is now better then before with the exception of vulcan is now unable to fight terminators, which sucks but I changed the list up a bit to adapt and I'm excited as hell for this edition.

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Re: Dreadnaughts = Bad?

Post  judchic on Sat Jul 07, 2012 11:04 pm

wouldnt vulkan's spear be considered a halberd aka power axe?

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Re: Dreadnaughts = Bad?

Post  Aegwymourn on Sun Jul 08, 2012 12:07 am

I had thought relic blades would fall under the unique power weapons?

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Re: Dreadnaughts = Bad?

Post  Roland on Sun Jul 08, 2012 11:17 am

I believe you are correct, they'd be a unique PW, and therefore AP3.

Relic Blades are kinda weird. Codex says its simply a Str 6 PW, that you cant gain additional attacks with.

In vulkans case, it's pretty clear its a Spear.

Would a Relic Blade (Axe) be user Str +3? AP2, Unweildy, or do all of them count as unusual power weapons? (Str +2, AP3)

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Re: Dreadnaughts = Bad?

Post  Aegwymourn on Sun Jul 08, 2012 11:34 am

I would think it would fall under unusual power weapons because it is a power weapon with additional unique rules (in this case striking with a str of 6 and not allowing an additional attack for another close combat weapon).

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Re: Dreadnaughts = Bad?

Post  Roland on Sun Jul 08, 2012 12:28 pm

My line of thinking as well. I'm hoping there is a FAQ on that tho, but it seems like they are worse than PF now, and cost 5 points more.

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Re: Dreadnaughts = Bad?

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