Grey Knights.. annoying?

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Grey Knights.. annoying?

Post  System Commander on Wed Jan 04, 2012 1:09 am

So.. we have a few people playing Grey Knights around here now for a bit.. me being one of them.

I just wanted to see how people thought about playing against them. Personally.. I feel a bit bad playing them lately. Theres enough of what I would refer to as annnoying units in the game.. but I've been staying away from Draigo and paladins so far myself.. but I have opted to take the henchmen route.. and two characters that have both rad and psycho grenades. . one Grandmaster and a techmarine.

Anyway.. I just wanted to see how people felt about them. I can tell you that sometimes I actually feel annoted jsut palying them.. Smile Im going to try a few different builds.. primarily working with some henchmens.. but I might go back to chaos for a bit just to get a break.

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Re: Grey Knights.. annoying?

Post  Lore Weaver on Wed Jan 04, 2012 8:07 am

I don't really have an opinion on it. I'd like a few more games vs the Knights of Grey first :-)

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Re: Grey Knights.. annoying?

Post  Rhaevyn on Wed Jan 04, 2012 9:45 am

No more annoying than DE or Space Wolves. If you like your army, play it.
Eventually the wheel will turn and chaos will be stupid and gross again and people can complain about it.

Could be worse, you could play giant wound allocation shenanigans units in every army you play.

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Re: Grey Knights.. annoying?

Post  Roland on Wed Jan 04, 2012 10:53 am

They're... different to play, but I wouldn't say annoying. Then again I haven't played Daemons or Chaos v them. Honestly I feel the biggest "Wha happened?" bit with the army is the shear amount of shootiness, followed by all PW close combat.

It's sorta like playing Nids (no vehicles, tons of stuff you can't instakill, MC...) in that the playstyle is very different from the "norm".

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Re: Grey Knights.. annoying?

Post  gluvzer on Wed Jan 04, 2012 11:48 am

I've played GK's a couple of times, and I do find them annoying to play. They just have an answer for everything and they don't really have any weaknesses. Especially when you finally get to hand to hand with them after going through they're shooting they pop-off 2(!) psychic powers in YOUR assault phase to help them beat your face in.

Tim mentioned last week that a half-retarded person could play them and not worry about losing, and I believe him. Now having said that, when I say "annoying to play" that doesn't mean I hate playing them (annoying doesn't mean hate), because I will play against them. I just know it will be a real struggel to pull off a win.

Question for GK players: Do any codex's or builds actually worry you?

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Re: Grey Knights.. annoying?

Post  Roland on Wed Jan 04, 2012 1:06 pm

Gluvser: Most worry me but then I guess I fall under Tim's comment (0-2 w/ GK).

I also suppose it depends on how far down the casual/competitve line the list goes. Overall I think the league balances it pretty well. My GK list LOOKS solid (I haven't had a chance to play it yet) but it's still just 31 bodies and 6 vehicles (2 of which are Rhinos). Honestly, from teh games I've play with, and against them, they remind me alot of Deathwing: extremely tough, solid blocks that can do most anything, but few enough in number that a screw-up will doom you.

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Re: Grey Knights.. annoying?

Post  gluvzer on Wed Jan 04, 2012 2:03 pm

My apologies Roland, I mean no offense, and meant that as a joke towards Robyn, however my reread shows that that doesn't come across at all. Wordsmithing sucks.

A balanced GK force should have all the tools necessary to deal with any type of threat. You have access to fantastic shooting and above average hth. With the proper shooting priorities you can take on all comers.

I find that all codex's or type of lists builds have some kind of weakness that has the potential to be exploited by a savy opponent. GK, in my opinion, do not.

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Re: Grey Knights.. annoying?

Post  Roland on Wed Jan 04, 2012 2:39 pm

No offense taken, just noting the obvious skill level differences between some players:) I should note those 2 losses were (1st loss) 5 days before the codex dropped with a shoe-horned list and a rough copy of the codex, and (2nd) vs Robyn in a GK vs GK match.

You're absolutely right, GK is an excellent all-comers list. I can't think of a codex in particular that would be its "nemesis" so to speak. Maybe Eldar or DE.

That said I think they DO have weaknesses

*All PA Grey Knights die just as easily as Space marines. GK Termies, die as well as Shooty-nators. Almost all improvements are offensive in nature.

*They are all psykers. Eldrad Eldar have a field day with them (voice of experience). I imagine that one Nid character (brainfart: can't think of name, Doom?) would eat them up.

*Expensive units/numbers: Purefiers and Paladins add up in a hurry. Even a basic GK squad (2 PsyC, DH) in a Rhino is pushing close to 300 pts. It adds up, even Space Marines outnumber them, Deathwing almost do. I realize Orks/Nids/Guard would die in droves, but 3 and 4-1 odds? Weight of dice have to even that out somewhat.

In all honestly, aside from the obvious ones (Chaos armies) I think Marine armies obviously far the worst against them, mainly because they do all the same thing GK do, just worse with a few more bodies. I'm not so interested in what Marine players think of GK as an opponet, but how the other armies fare against them. Have you brought out your Guard against them?

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Re: Grey Knights.. annoying?

Post  miv305 on Wed Jan 04, 2012 2:53 pm

Here we go again,

What I find more annoying than playing Grey Knights are people who cry about them. I've already decided to stop playing them even though they (tiny army of elite specialists) perfectly suit my perferred style of play, something that I have demonstrated in every game I've ever played!

I have never played a Crowe list, or a Coteaz list that has 14-16 vehicles with Psybolt ammunition. I play Grey Knights because I like having a few units that are hard to kill and can dish out serious damage, yet because of the preception of the codex I only win because they're overpowered. Any time I lose it's because I'm a retard and was outwitted by a superior general (nevermind that most of the time my opponent plays a fully optimized list and I'm taking goofy stuff like 260 pt Grand Masters or 115 pts Special Characters that have 1 wound).

It's super frustrating to have someone like Tim say it's easy to win with Grey Knights and how any retard can win with them. This is the same guy who takes min-maxing to a Tyson-like level but somehow that's ok because he plays Vanilla Marines...how is playing a fluffy pure GK army worse than a spammy min-max marine army?

Almost every codex can produce a good list especially when a person chooses only the most points efficient unit in each force org slot. I think people read certain army lists and start assuming every game involving said army will be just as bad, in my opinion that's not the case.

I truly believe people should look in the mirror a bit before decrying their opponents army choice. If you maxed out every slot except troops because your marines cost 1 pt more than someone elses, or your running your Chaos Marines as Space Wolves because they provide better bang for the buck, maybe your just as bad as that evil Grey Knight player you find "annoying".

Sorry for the rant but I've heard this enough times in the ~15 years I've been playing this game.

On a somewhat related note Grey Knights have several really bad match-ups, the most obvious being either Eldar army. Problem is no one besides myself plays Craftworld/Dark Eldar in the league so we don't see their Ying to the GK's Yang (spelling?).

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Re: Grey Knights.. annoying?

Post  Paz on Wed Jan 04, 2012 3:17 pm

Two things I don't like about playing grey knights (I've been playing against them a lot):

1. High initiative coupled with power weapons- no matter Which units I use, I know every enemy unit has power weapons an usually higher initiative, thanks to halberds. Boring.

2. Silly rules, for cheap as borsch. Rad ad Psyk out 'nades, psychic vehicles, paladins.


I just find its not usually Fun to play against the Heavier terminator lists. But I've played against a lot of the same style min-max squads of paladins, death cut assassins. I think a more balanced list would be more enjoyable.

I did enjoy our game Robyn (other than those grenades, ouch!)

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Re: Grey Knights.. annoying?

Post  Rhaevyn on Wed Jan 04, 2012 3:29 pm

miv305 wrote:

Problem is no one besides myself plays Craftworld/Dark Eldar in the league so we don't see their Ying to the GK's Yang (spelling?).

Not true, Tyson's tailored DE build of beastmaster wound allocation shenanigans and sideboarded lady Malys held the forces of Chaos to a hotly contested tie, just yesterday!

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Re: Grey Knights.. annoying?

Post  Lore Weaver on Wed Jan 04, 2012 3:32 pm

Massed Necron Shooting seems effective on Grey Knights. Although I don't have a lot of experience under my belt, it seems to be working well on the internets.

Also, the one day that Draigo gets stuck in a Tesseract Labyrinth will be an awesome day to remember. (An unlikely event that includes a Necron Player being silly enough to take a Tesseract Labyrinth, nevermind getting into base with Draigo and living to strike back)

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Re: Grey Knights.. annoying?

Post  gluvzer on Wed Jan 04, 2012 3:43 pm

@Mike V.
My eyes are starting to get pretty wet. You make excellent points about codex selection. But you have to admit that the potential for abuse is definitly there.

Do you condsider my vanilla list optimized at all? Because they sure got their face smashed by your unoptimized list. Honestly, I really felt there was nothing I could do to pull out a win, best was to hope for a tie.

@Mark
It was super easy getting out of that stupid labrynth with my librarian. I just rolled a 1, and walked right out.

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Re: Grey Knights.. annoying?

Post  HiveMindRuik on Wed Jan 04, 2012 3:51 pm

i too play darkeldar...

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Re: Grey Knights.. annoying?

Post  Timbo on Wed Jan 04, 2012 5:00 pm

miv305 wrote:
It's super frustrating to have someone like Tim say it's easy to win with Grey Knights and how any retard can win with them. This is the same guy who takes min-maxing to a Tyson-like level but somehow that's ok because he plays Vanilla Marines...how is playing a fluffy pure GK army worse than a spammy min-max marine army?

Mike did I hurt your feelings? You got a good two for one shot in there. Tyson and I in one go! I don't really know how to respond to this. I honestly believe, in my heart of hearts that the Grey Knights book is overpowered. Why that would hurt the feelings of people who play the army I don't know. It's not their fault. It's Matt Ward's fault. Mike and I have always had this competitive thing going on, and sometimes it bubbles to the surface. But I think that was a bit much. I like to play the game at a high level in terms of tactics, army design and metagame. Yes, I try to squeeze everything I can out of my middle-tier codex because that's the army I have and that's the army I enjoy to play. If you don't enjoy playing me Mike you're under no obligation. I honestly like playing you because I know I'll always get a challenging game, and you'll bring a well-designed list. Win or lose, I'll learn something, and I'll grow as a player.

As for your comment on both Eldar types being bad matchups for GK I disagree. Eldar do have psychic defence, but their other stuff is so overcosted they just can't bring enough shooting to the table. GK can table the craftworlders without using a psychic power. DE can't suppress GK vehicles and their easy access to FNP is useless versus the knights. They can try to play the range game, but they'll need some lucky results versus those psyfleman dreads to have a chance. Although I agree DE would have a better chance than the craftworlders.

I'm currently involved in a very interesting discussion on this exact topic over on 3++ Is The New Black with Kirby and AbusePuppy. Goatboy also posted an interesting article on this which I'm sure a lot of you have seen but I'll post just in case:
http://www.3plusplus.net/2011/12/moving-kirbys-grey-knight-acolyte-spam.html#more
http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2011/12/goatboys-40k-im-done-with-grey-knights.html

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Re: Grey Knights.. annoying?

Post  gluvzer on Wed Jan 04, 2012 5:50 pm

Good discussion after the 3++ article.

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Re: Grey Knights.. annoying?

Post  miv305 on Wed Jan 04, 2012 5:59 pm

@ Tim - I wasn't trying to say your not fun to play against, that's not true otherwise why would we have had 100 games over the years Smile My point was solely about people (honestly not singling out anyone specifically) complaining about GK's who themselves use lists that are on par or are more lethal than the GK lists floating around in our community. To put it into perspective imagine how a foot ork army feels when lining up against your 3 Thunderfire Cannons Razz

@ Ryan - your list that game wasn't optimized, so after it you made changes as you realized you weren't equipped to deal with all the TEQ's running around. You also admitted afterward that you weren't nearly agressive enough in dealing with the Terminator Deathstar. One Null Zone and that 1000 pt unit is pretty vulnerable to assorted anti-TEQ tactics (i.e. plasma, melta, etc.)

Back to the match-ups discussion - I'd gladly match my "optimized" 1500 pt Dark Eldar list against any GK army. 2+ saves and psychic powers won't help when you get nuked by 20+ lances and 60+ poisoned shots in 1 turn. Another advantage for Dark Eldar is that MSU style is tough for GK's because they can only shoot at a few targets per turn.

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Re: Grey Knights.. annoying?

Post  gluvzer on Wed Jan 04, 2012 6:12 pm

Mike's DE list is the stupidest thing I've ever seen. I called our first game on turn 2 and made it to turn 4 for the second game with my tourny marine list.

That still bothers me about our game though Mike. My balanced vanilla list vs. your 'silly' GK list, and I didn't stand a chance. I think with the changes I made it would still be an up hill battle.

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Re: Grey Knights.. annoying?

Post  Roland on Wed Jan 04, 2012 6:30 pm

Any chance of seeing the 2 list side by side?

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Re: Grey Knights.. annoying?

Post  Lore Weaver on Wed Jan 04, 2012 6:36 pm

Voth, are your Space Puppies the only thing you've got fully painted?

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Re: Grey Knights.. annoying?

Post  System Commander on Wed Jan 04, 2012 6:38 pm

I can honestly say that I dont think Id be nervous about playing against army right now with the grey knights. Ive been switching a few units out here and there.. but I have had a few staples that have done fantastic in every game.

Psyflleman Dread
4 Death cult assassins, 4 crusaders accompanied by a techmarine with grenades in a crusader
2 squads of 10 grey knights, 2 psycanons, thunder hammer, and psybolt ammunition in rhinos
5 terminators, 1 psycannon , usdually accompanied by a grand master or borther captain with psycannon and grenades

The other things Ive mixed it up with include coteaz and henchmen squads, and dreadknight, and an inqusitor in terminator armour with a psycannon if I dont take coteaz.. just so I can take the assassins and crusaders.

The only game I lost with them was the very first one I played against Ryan and Tim at the team tournament. After that I havent lost.. and I can gurantee it wasnt because of my tactics. The game me and Beau played we just threw dice at eachother and I started to come out on top. I killed his raider first and his interceptors mishapped. Ive also had alot of luck though. The crusader has not been destroyed in about games. It hasnt even taken something my techmarine has had to fix.

I mainly brought the thread up because of a couple things. I think I jsut feel really bad when the death cult assassins assault something with the crusaders and techmarine. and they wipe it out before the unit gets to go.. if they even get to go because of the grenades. I was feeling a bit bad about the shooting.. until I played against the newcrons and got outshot big time. But its probably the combination of the both that has me wondering. Great shooting.. and then when the opponent finally breaks through it.. your faced with units of power weapons.. some that may be at init 6 or 10. Thats a bit daunting like Ryan had said.

I was wanted to see how the community felt about them. For me.. it seems the grenades are my biggest stumbling block. I ve learnt you definitely dont have to take both for the assault to work.. I might bump it down and jsut take one for a bit.

Im going to read the 3++ article right now.. I saw Goatboys earlier in the week and sort of reflects how I feel about them.




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Re: Grey Knights.. annoying?

Post  Timbo on Wed Jan 04, 2012 7:55 pm

miv305 wrote:@ Tim - I wasn't trying to say your not fun to play against, that's not true otherwise why would we have had 100 games over the years Smile My point was solely about people (honestly not singling out anyone specifically) complaining about GK's who themselves use lists that are on par or are more lethal than the GK lists floating around in our community. To put it into perspective imagine how a foot ork army feels when lining up against your 3 Thunderfire Cannons Razz

That's true. They probably feel the same way about playing against Purifiers. I don't take the TFCs to beat foot orks though, because armies like Space Wolves and GK have made foot orks unplayable. I take the TFCs because of their range and flexibility. Reecius posted a pretty good article on BoLS about spam. Somehow it has become a 4-letter word in some gaming circles. And not just because it actually has 4 letters! Don't get me wrong, it brought a smile to my face to see that Colonial GT winning list with the bikers and the TFCs, but let's get a grip here. Nobody is talking about how broken vanilla marines are with their TFC spam.

Also, while I agree that you don't play a 3xpsyfleman version of GK, your insistance that you play fluffy lists rings pretty false. Not only that, but when you claim you are playing a fluffy list and you beat your opponent, how is he supposed to feel? Is he supposed to feel like he can't even beat a "bad" version of the army you're playing? Or is he supposed to think you are the greatest general who ever lived who can win with a "bad" Grey Knights army? I'm not making fun, and I hate the fact that this crappy codex has produced this many arguments and bad feelings over what should be a fun game. I don't mean to discredit GK players who win games with their army. They seem to take criticism of their book personally and I can understand why. Who would want to feel like their book makes up for their weaknesses as players? I sure wouldn't. It's a difficult issue, and I don't what the answer is.

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Re: Grey Knights.. annoying?

Post  gluvzer on Wed Jan 04, 2012 8:23 pm

There is no answer. Just keep on playing. Everyone here knows Mike, Robyn, Beau, and everyone else in this gaming group for that matter, did not pick GK's as an army to Beat Face with. They picked them because they liked the models/fluff/etc. or already owned them. It's a really appealing army.

I'll never refuse to play against GK, or be angry at my opponent for bringing them to the table. However, I won't listen to people trying to tell me that the codex is not overpowered.

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Re: Grey Knights.. annoying?

Post  miv305 on Wed Jan 04, 2012 8:45 pm

@Mark - yeah Space Wolves are all I have that's fully painted.

@Tim - My GK list is a big unit of Terminators with a Grandmaster, 2 Dreads and 1 of each power armor squad minus purifiers. It features 0 transports, 0 purifiers, 0 henchmen and contains 1 duplicate choice...how is that not fluffy?

Again I ask which is worse for the game:

A GK list that features several different choices and takes no advantage of multi-wound allocation shenanigans and hiding in transports
OR
A spam list that triples up on every force org slot minus troops?

This is no longer about calling specific people/lists out as many codecies can produce spamy lists that are effective. People will champion a player who wins with an outdated codex even though it only features units that have rules that no longer function as intended (i.e. Necron Wraithwing pre-new book) or wildly inconsistent points values (i.e. Black Templars with 9 70 pt Typhoons). Those same people will say that winning with GK's is easy and no big deal, it's a huge double standard that needs to go away.

P.S. I read the 3++ discussion and agree with what's been said by many of the posters, the key element many people seem to agree on (albeit in their own way) is that GK lists can be fluffy and good, many armies can't do that, perhaps that's why people feel like it's so over the top.

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Re: Grey Knights.. annoying?

Post  miv305 on Wed Jan 04, 2012 8:52 pm

gluvzer wrote:However, I won't listen to people trying to tell me that the codex is not overpowered.

In all honesty what army book written in the past 2 years (minus Nids of course!) do people not consider overpowered? IG, Wolves, Blood Angels, GK's, Dark Eldar all have been called broken at one time or another. I still feel that IG is a completely over the top book (especially if a person plays it in a ruthless fashion) and I remain totally convinced that mech Blood Angels is the best army possible.

Luckily no one in our community plays it Smile

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