vannilla marines help

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vannilla marines help

Post  Selik on Wed Dec 21, 2011 8:38 pm

Unlimited Pts - Codex: Space Marines Roster

now following the force org chart for 40k, I am looking at my SM and wondering what units I should take in a 1500pt list. this not by far all the models I have but most of them. I do not know what I should be taking for a 1500pt list. any help would be nice.

HQ: Space Marine Librarian in Terminator Armour (9#, 725 pts)
6 Terminator Assault Squad, 550 pts (Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield x6)
1 Sergeant
1 Land Raider Crusader (Multi-melta; Pintle-mounted Storm Bolter)
1 Space Marine Librarian in Terminator Armour, 175 pts (Epistolary; Null Zone; Quickening)

HQ: Space Marine Chaplain in Power Armour (6#, 260 pts)
4 Assault Squad, 145 pts (Plasma Pistol)
1 Sergeant (Plasma Pistol x1; Power Weapon x1)
1 Space Marine Chaplain in Power Armour, 115 pts (Jump Pack)

Troops: Tactical Squad (11#, 310 pts)
9 Tactical Squad, 310 pts (Meltagun; Multi-melta)
1 Sergeant (Teleport Homer; Bolt Pistol; Power Fist x1)
1 Razorback (Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Hunter-killer Missile; Pintle-mounted Storm Bolter; Twin-Linked Lascannon)

Troops: Tactical Squad (11#, 230 pts)
9 Tactical Squad, 230 pts (Flamer; Missile Launcher)
1 Sergeant (Bolt Pistol; Power Fist x1)
1 Rhino (Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Storm Bolter)

Troops: Tactical Squad (11#, 240 pts)
9 Tactical Squad, 240 pts (Flamer; Missile Launcher)
1 Sergeant (Melta Bombs; Plasma Pistol x1; Power Weapon x1)
1 Rhino (Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Storm Bolter)

Troops: Scout Squad (6#, 88 pts)
5 Scout Squad, 88 pts (Combat Blade x4; Shotgun x1)
1 Sergeant (Bolt Pistol; Combat Blade)

Elite: Terminator Squad (10#, 440 pts)
9 Terminator Squad, 440 pts (Chain Fist x1; Heavy Flamer; Cyclone Missile Launcher)
1 Sergeant

Elite: Ironclad Dreadnought (1#, 150 pts)
1 Ironclad Dreadnought, 150 pts (Ironclad Assault Launchers; Hurricane Bolter)

Fast Attack: Space Marine Bike Squad (4#, 165 pts)
2 Space Marine Bike Squad, 165 pts
1 Attack Bike (Multi-melta)
1 Sergeant (Power Fist)

Heavy Support: Devastator Squad (5#, 200 pts)
4 Devastator Squad, 200 pts (Lascannon x2; Missile Launcher x2)
1 Sergeant (Bolt Pistol; Storm Bolter x1)

Heavy Support: Predator (1#, 85 pts)
1 Predator, 85 pts (Heavy Bolter (each side))

Heavy Support: Whirlwind (1#, 95 pts)
1 Whirlwind, 95 pts (Pintle-mounted Storm Bolter)


Total Roster Cost: 2988

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Re: vannilla marines help

Post  dusktiger on Wed Dec 21, 2011 9:39 pm

lemmi run some ideas thru AB and i'll get back to ya with a reply here.

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Re: vannilla marines help

Post  dusktiger on Wed Dec 21, 2011 11:01 pm

jeez, after seeing how long i wrote into my reply to tim, i feel bad about typing this cause it got a little winded too! sorry robyn!
i'll post a suggested list idea in a reply right after this one, so if you wanna skim or skip this post, go ahead; its just discussing tips and advice on tweaks to kevin's models and personal experience with some of the units.



ok, lets run through some things here.

on your tactical sgts, you gave 2 power fists, but kept the pistols. i would suggest you drop the pistols and take bolters instead, because you no longer get the +1 attack bonus for a fist and pistol; only a pair of fists give the +1 attack bonus now, same with thunder hammers. so its better to take bolters, or storm bolters, or combi weapons with these guys. so if its not impossible to do so, you might wanna model them with those instead to make them have a little more punch. afterall, why limit him to a single 12" shot if he can have 2 at that range, or 1 at 24", right?

Your biker squad you should probably consider adding 2 special weapons to them; they're not worth fielding in the first place if you're only special weapon is on the attack bike. since you made him a multi melta, i'd suggest 2 melta guns, and possibly even a combi melta on the sgt if your into the combi weapon thing.

i like your small assault squad, you've got 2 plasma shots and 6/8 power weapon attacks. its a nice little unit and since not many people field those lately, it can add character to your list and make it memorable.

you took advantage of the total capacity of the crusader nicely, but there's 2 things, well 3, that i see of note; since you're taking up to 7 terminators, you should have at least 2 with lightning claws. i have 2 5 man units myself, and one was all hammers, the other has 2 claws. when i field both squads, i put a claw in each unit. the reason for this is sometimes you come across a unit in melee that you cant fully rely on the storm shields to get them all to counter attack at I1. so the claws are good to get some attacks in just in case. and it also lets you play wound allocation so your not losing all your guys just because you rolled enough poor saves.
also, if you really really like the 3++ of the shields, you should try to give your libby one. a 3++ is a helluva lot better than 5++; and he's your HQ; he shouldn't have a sucky invul that a lowly 40pt terminator model has. thirdly, you made him an epistolary, and gave him null zone and quickening. the epistolary option really isnt worth it because its rare you'll actually want to use 2 powers in one turn, especially since all the good ones that are worth using both in one turn fire off in the same phase, so you cant do that anyways, so your two power choices, (which are both activated in the shooting phase), + the ability to activate 2 powers per turn, is self-defeating. if you want him to be an epistolary, then pair null zone, which i think is a good power btw, with something like...might of the ancients which fires off in your assault phase. or drop epistolary and pair null zone with the avenger; both powers activate in your shooting phase, so you dont need to worry about being able to fire 2 powers per turn. and they synergize nicely; you can activate null zone when your about to assault a unit with invul saves. or, you can use avenger, (which is AP3 so it negates power armor saves!) and soften up a large unit your about to assault.

onto your troops;
you have your melta unit with your razorback; the best way to utilize melta models is have them shoot from the 2 firing points of the rhino, so they can attack vehicles and MC without being immediately struck back. razorbacks dont have firing points, so you lose this tactical choice. you should swap the razorback to one of your missile squads, and have it camp there with the squad like a second heavy weapon option that has an AV instead of a 3+ save.

your scouts i cant figure out what to make of them. i havent played melee scouts before, but i have considered the idea of a squad of them with a storm speeder. (an ascetic choice, really) i have trouble seeing how a bunch of BS/WS 3 models with a 4+ save would do well in melee, so i usually see these best played with rifles so they can still camp the home objective, but also whittle down targets of opportunity that come into range. and giving them cloaks just makes them better because you usually camp them in 4+ cover anyways, so now they have a 3++ to shooting attacks.

the ironclad; i like dreads, you know; i have about 8 or 9 atm, and i want more. i just like the model itself and what it brings to a table. i have 2 ironclads, and i fitted them with their current loadouts after playing them a fair bit; this is where magging the arms is useful. if you want to use the hurricane bolter arm, you should always pair it with the chainfist. this is why; taking the hurricane bolter means you now only have 2 attacks, 3 on the charge, to penetrate the armor of a vehicle. if your charging anything over AV 12, this means lower chances of doing something. the Chainfist gives you 2D6 armour pen on 2/3charge attacks at STR 10. the seismic hammer is better for when you take the 2 arm choice, because you get 3/4 attacks, and by choosing to make them all with the seismic hammer, you get to add +1 to all roll results on the damage chart. that +1 to the results seems to be good with a hurricane bolter, but you dont get enough possible hits on the average for it to really shine.

predators; try to take these in pairs when you can; once's always handy, but 2's alot better.

whirlwinds. jeez, where did these go? 5th Ed kinda killed these right off, you never see them anymore. it doesnt help that the gun profiles are a weak S5 or S4 ignore cover. this thing is 5 points cheaper than a thunderfire, but the thunderfire gets 4x the shots, and its ignore cover shots is S5, with a normal S6, or a S4 that causes difficult terrain. you might be better off just making this into another transport option, or a predator if you can get your hands on the upgrade sprue.



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Re: vannilla marines help

Post  dusktiger on Wed Dec 21, 2011 11:03 pm

ok, here's a 1500pt list idea looking at your models.

Composition Report:
HQ: 1 (1 - 2)
Elite: 1 (0 - 3)
Troops: 4 (2 - 6)
Fast: 1 (0 - 3)
Heavy: 2 (0 - 3)
Total Roster Cost: 1488

HQ: Space Marine Chaplain (115 pts)
1 Space Marine Chaplain + Jump Pack

Fast Attack: Assault Squad with jump packs(145 pts)
5 Assault Squad + Plasma Pistol + Sergeant (Plasma Pistol + Power Weapon)

Troops: Tactical Squad (235 pts)
10 Tactical Squad + Meltagun + Multi-Melta + Sergeant (Bolter + Power Fist)
1 Rhino

Troops: Tactical Squad (230 pts)
10 Tactical Squad + Flamer + Missile Launcher + Sergeant (Bolter + Power Fist)
1 Rhino

Troops: Tactical Squad (240 pts)
10 Tactical Squad + Flamer + Missile Launcher + Sergeant (Plasma Pistol + Power Weapon + Melta Bombs)
1 Rhino

Troops: Scout Squad (88 pts)
6 Scout Squad (5 BPistol&CBlade + 1 Shotgun)

Elite: Ironclad Dreadnought (150 pts)
1 Ironclad Dreadnought + Ironclad Assault Launchers + Chain Fist + Hurricane Bolter

Heavy Support: Devastator Squad (200 pts)
5 Devastator Squad + Lascannon x2 + Missile Launcher x2 + Sergeant (storm bolter)

Heavy Support: Predator (85 pts)
1 Predator + Heavy Bolter Sponsons




Last edited by dusktiger on Thu Dec 22, 2011 12:42 am; edited 4 times in total (Reason for editing : fixed typos)

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Re: vannilla marines help

Post  System Commander on Wed Dec 21, 2011 11:31 pm

I think this 1500 point list is very basic and straight forward.. and can be very effective.. and works into the original list good.

Ill just mention a couple things, but they're just more questions... and Im jsut going to work off Mike's list becasue it provides a good base.

The assault squad looks like it's walking.. ? They really need a ride.. or jump packs. If you cant give them either though.. it might just be best to ditch them. There are a couple tactical squads without a heavy/specail weapon. Even just putting the one heavy weapon in with them gives them something to do while sitting in their rhino. I think by ditching the Assault or the Scout squad.. (assault scouts are pretty .. not good) that should free up some points to get a few weapons onto them. Keeping the one unit with a multimelta and melta gun would be a great idea.

The chaplain has a jump pack right, but really needs to be with a dedicatred assault unit to be useful. If the assault guys had packs.. it would make sense, but without it .. its a tough call to get being useful. I think you might want to try to go with the librarin in power armour.. that psychic hood is really useful these days. Just a few tweaks here and there in my opinion.. but I dont play space marines regularly.. just face them alot.

Id love to say to take the 5 assault termies and the land raider.. but, alot of points in a 1500 point game get eaten by those. Maybe Tim or Ryan can weigh in a bit more of their effectiveness in smaller point games? I've faced them several times, and it usually doesnt end well. My goal is to usually try to hit them with at least 2 units and saturate them with enough attacks that they cant possibly win. Even ditching the Librarian for the chaplain to hang out with them might be useful if were scrounging for points.

Just a couple points from my point from facing them.. everything else looks good. Oh, and a closing point.. I always find the lone attack back with a multi melta a good option if your loooking for a low point unit. When facing them, Im usually reluctant to dedicate a full unit to assaulting it.. and if hugging cover and boosting around, can be a pain to kill with shooting.

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Re: vannilla marines help

Post  dusktiger on Thu Dec 22, 2011 12:09 am


The assault squad looks like it's walking.. ? They really need a ride.. or jump packs. If you cant give them either though.. it might just be best to ditch them.

these have jump packs by default robs; and he's got the jump pack chappy too, so he's good there.

There are a couple tactical squads without a heavy/special weapon. Even just putting the one heavy weapon in with them gives them something to do while sitting in their rhino.
that was a fuckup on how army builder exports unit details when you choose the shorthanded tournament summary version; the ones that look empty have a missile/flamer combo; for some reason AB doesnt print the free-cost wargear when i choose the "lite" print option.

figured i'd clarify those points as those were misunderstandings based off how i copy and pasted the list without proofreading. it was a long slow day at work, my head's just muggy tonight lol

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Re: vannilla marines help

Post  System Commander on Thu Dec 22, 2011 12:37 am

Awesome.. then it all makes perfect sense. I wasn't sure on the assault troop thing. Working with what you got.. I think thats a solid 1500 point list.

Those scouts though.. eeek. For sure with rifles they'd be decent.. but with CCW weapons.. I guess the one good thing they'll be good at is potentially keeping them in reserve and have then creep onto the board later in the game and sit on an objective in your zone.. or maybe try to contest one. I think a single multi melta attack bike would be more useful.. but.. the scouts are troops.

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Re: vannilla marines help

Post  Selik on Thu Dec 22, 2011 7:37 am

the one reason why i have the assault scouts,

at the time I needed a assault unit and I had none, these guys were cheap second hand, in fact they are the metal scouts.
I had used them a couple times and had them outflank, I have chased leeman russ tanks with them and gone after softer units that are not assault like. I have found them very useful. I usually use them in a bit larger point value game.

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Re: vannilla marines help

Post  Selik on Thu Dec 22, 2011 10:12 pm

I do not know why I can not figure out a 1500pt SM list, I think I was to focused on my TH Termies and lad raider.

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Re: vannilla marines help

Post  dusktiger on Thu Dec 22, 2011 10:14 pm

they can be useful, but with what you have in your collection, you're better off taking your chappy and assault squad, cause it frees up enough points for that 3rd tactical squad.

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Re: vannilla marines help

Post  Roland on Thu Dec 22, 2011 11:06 pm

From the lists I've seen (and tried to build myself) the good old Libby/Hammernator/Crusader combo requires some sacrifices @ 1500 pts, and, as Mike noted, it doesn't leave much room for other stuff.

My typical "building block" is a Dread/Pred/FA combo, with the FA usually either being a speeder (usually Typhoons) or an Attack Bike squadron w/ MM. A Rifleman Dread, Dakka Predator, and a Typhoon speeder come in @ 300 points. If melta's your thing, A MM/HF dread, dakka pred, and a attack bike squadron (2 bikes, MM's) runs.... 300 points:) Double that and you have a solid core. If you try to add the Hammer squad you're leaving yourself 300 pts for troops, which is doable, but not very feasible (Tact squad and a scout squad? If both are bare, try to fit in a rhino?) Ga1n managed to cram it into his 1500 pt list, you may want to PM him.

Note: that Hammernator unit is potent @ 1500 pts (a reason we saw 2 of them in the 6 man rumble). I took out most of Ga1n's other units, but if he had one more turn would have likely broken me.

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Re: vannilla marines help

Post  Timbo on Thu Dec 22, 2011 11:52 pm

Conventional wisdom is about 1 troop choice/500 points. More is good if you have access to good troops. Everyone knows I run light on troops, and yes it occassionally costs me. But the 3 full 10 man squads and the scout squad in the suggested list is just way too much. That list has no ooomph. Either drop a choice, or pare down some of those squads. 4 troops is fine, and will let you play to the scenario more effectively, but you cannot spend half your points on troops as space marines and have success.

Also, the chaplain is the worst HQ choice in the space marine codex:( He is not an army-buffer or force multiplier. And he provides no anti-tank or utility. He makes a TT/SS terminator squad expensive overkill, or makes an already crappy space marine unit expensive and slightly less crappy.

With the models you have available, I would definitely run the terminators and landraider at 1500 points with the librarian. Because of the cost of this, I would not upgrade the librarian. I would give him null zone and gate, but that is a matter of taste. Null zone and anything is fine. It's just that your list does not have a lot of mobility so gate might come in handy. Your heavy support, fast attack and elites choices are pretty limited. Without a drop pod for the ironclad he is slow and has a range of 12". He's one of those units your opponent can avoid or worse yet, ignore. The devastators are bad, but you may have to field them. The predator is fine, as is fielding a single attack bike. I haven't seen non-Blood Angel assault troops played in a couple of years locally or online. There's a reason for that, sadly.

So you're looking at: Libby+ Termies in Crusader = 600 points or so
Predator 85
Attack Bike 50
Devastators (sigh) 200
Troops 500-600 points

You could go 2X10 man tactical squads in rhinos and 5 scouts probably. You can use the boxes to build a wall around your devastators to keep them safe, or move them into midfield and have the Crusader use them as cover. For an objective game you could combat squad those units and have 5 scoring units on the board. Not bad. Be sure to field the Crusader as a heavy support choice because you have a free slot. That gives you the freedom to put your scouts or devastators in it at the beginning of the game if the need arises.

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Re: vannilla marines help

Post  Timbo on Fri Dec 23, 2011 6:43 pm

System Commander wrote:I think this 1500 point list is very basic and straight forward.. and can be very effective.. and works into the original list good.

Like the Derek Zoolander centre for kids who can't read good! Wink

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Re: vannilla marines help

Post  Selik on Fri Dec 23, 2011 7:09 pm

so with some help fm you boyz out there, this is what I have come up with for a trial with what I have.


1500 Pts - Codex: Space Marines Roster

HQ: Space Marine Librarian in Terminator Armour (7#, 585 pts)
4 Terminator Assault Squad, 460 pts (Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield x4)
1 Sergeant
1 Land Raider Crusader (Multi-melta)
1 Space Marine Librarian in Terminator Armour, 125 pts (Null Zone; The Avenger)

Troops: Tactical Squad (11#, 205 pts)
9 Tactical Squad, 205 pts (Flamer; Missile Launcher)
1 Sergeant (Bolt Pistol; Chainsword x1)
1 Rhino (Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Storm Bolter)

Troops: Tactical Squad (11#, 235 pts)
9 Tactical Squad, 235 pts (Meltagun; Multi-melta)
1 Sergeant (Bolt Pistol; Power Fist x1)
1 Rhino (Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Storm Bolter)

Troops: Scout Squad (6#, 88 pts)
5 Scout Squad, 88 pts (Combat Blade x4; Shotgun x1)
1 Sergeant (Bolt Pistol; Combat Blade)

Fast Attack: Attack Bike Squad (1#, 50 pts)
1 Attack Bike Squad, 50 pts (Multi-melta x1)

Fast Attack: Assault Squad (5#, 145 pts)
4 Assault Squad, 145 pts (Plasma Pistol)
1 Sergeant (Plasma Pistol x1; Power Weapon x1)

Heavy Support: Predator (1#, 85 pts)
1 Predator, 85 pts (Heavy Bolter (each side))

Elite: Dreadnought (1#, 105 pts)
1 Dreadnought, 105 pts


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Re: vannilla marines help

Post  Lore Weaver on Fri Dec 23, 2011 8:58 pm

Only comment I have is, during games, be careful with the Assault Squad.

"The Kid" loves his, he's used it a bunch of different ways, sometimes things go bad for them very quickly. He runs two plasma pistols and a power fist in his. When he manages an assault on Boyz, things generally go quite well, when he gets assaulted, not so much so. Hanging them out in the open tends to get them dead too, but you've got lots of other distractions on the board so...

I like it. I think it's a solid Marine list.

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Re: vannilla marines help

Post  gluvzer on Fri Dec 23, 2011 11:33 pm

Honestly you'd be better off dumping the assault squad and scouts and taking the dev squad. Vanilla assault squads are probably the worst FA choice in the SM codex. If you're set on those scouts please consider adding meltabombs to your sergeant even if you have to drop them down to 5 to get them.

With terminator armour on your libby, think about taking vortex because even though it's hvy 1 you can move and shoot it.

Otherwise everything else looks good.

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Re: vannilla marines help

Post  Timbo on Sat Dec 24, 2011 1:05 am

I'd have to agree on the assault squad. If you're fielding it 5 strong the best value is dropping the jump packs and getting a free rhino. That gives you another box to drive around, however attack bikes and speeders are definitely the way to go in the FA section. Your FA section is a marine's bread and butter IMO. That is your best source of anti-tank and your mobility for late-game objective contests.

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Re: vannilla marines help

Post  dusktiger on Sat Dec 24, 2011 12:52 pm

kevin, you mentioned you own a few more models than what's in your original list; could you give us a run down of anything you left out? if we know what else you have to work with, we might be able to offer more list ideas; and give us some preferences you have in your models; what units are your personal favs you cant live without

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Re: vannilla marines help

Post  System Commander on Sat Dec 24, 2011 1:02 pm

Timbo wrote:
System Commander wrote:I think this 1500 point list is very basic and straight forward.. and can be very effective.. and works into the original list good.

Like the Derek Zoolander centre for kids who can't read good! Wink

What is this.. a school for ANTS! ?

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Re: vannilla marines help

Post  Selik on Sun Dec 25, 2011 1:42 pm

I do not have to much more, but I do have a reg dread with multi melta.

a cople of extra reg termies. just not enough to make a squad.

I also have another whirlwind.

I also have another 10 man assault squad on foot. I do not have a rhino for them. 1 sgt with pwr fist and 9 reg chainsword and bot pistol.

seeing as it seems that people are saying fast attack is what I should get, I am not sure if I chould expand a bit on the biker squad a bit. and add another attack bike. and two land speeders. just so I have some options.

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Re: vannilla marines help

Post  dusktiger on Sun Dec 25, 2011 4:40 pm

Speeders are good, especially in pairs cause they're fragile; bolters kills them afterall. I like typhoons cause you can still move 12" and fire the gunner's gun and the missiles if you fire them as the scattering S4. But if you want a hard hitting suicide unit, double MM on each speeder does make people stop and think; even though its just a speeder, the idea of a fast deep striking skimmer that can kill tanks on turn 2 reserve rolls still makes people nervous; especially if you take a lot of those.

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Re: vannilla marines help

Post  Lore Weaver on Sun Dec 25, 2011 9:34 pm

If you find yourself in a model buying mood (I imagine Darren has a boxing week sale), a landspeeder Typhoon would be hawt-sauce.

The games I've played against Tim's, they've always performed well for him.

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Re: vannilla marines help

Post  Rhaevyn on Sun Dec 25, 2011 9:58 pm

3 out of 4 games i've been in or watched recently have been won by "He Who Fields the Most Melta."

I cant imagine a scarier thing in the mech meta than a fast skimmer with double mult-imeltas. For 80 points? how is it not going to pay for itself?

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Re: vannilla marines help

Post  Lore Weaver on Mon Dec 26, 2011 12:25 am

Rhaevyn wrote:3 out of 4 games i've been in or watched recently have been won by "He Who Fields the Most Melta."

Hence the "Dead Monolith" syndrome :-)

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Re: vannilla marines help

Post  Selik on Mon Dec 26, 2011 5:23 pm

ok,

I ended up at the Den today for some reason (25% off this week).

bought 2 speeders. I just have to figure out how I will arm them, I figure MM and the missle launchers.

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Re: vannilla marines help

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