1500 Biker Army

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1500 Biker Army

Post  dusktiger on Wed Dec 21, 2011 11:24 am

need to buy another 3 plain bikers before i can field this.

Composition Report:
HQ: 1 (1 - 2)
Elite: 0 (0 - 3)
Troops: 3 (2 - 6)
Fast: 2 (0 - 3)
Heavy: 0 (0 - 3)

Total Roster Cost: 1500

HQ:

Space Marine Captain (1#, 165 pts)
1 Space Marine Captain + Space Marine Bike + Relic Blade

Command Squad (5#, 275 pts)
1 Command Squad + Space Marine Bikes
. . 1 Apothecary
. . 1 Company Champion
. . 1 Veteran + Power Fist
. . 1 Veteran + Lightning Claw
. . 1 Veteran + Plasma gun

Troops:

Space Marine Bikes (6#, 235 pts)
. . 4 Space Marine Bikes + Meltagun x2
. . . . 1 Attack Bike + Multi-melta
. . . . 1 Sergeant + Power Fist

Space Marine Bikes (6#, 235 pts)
. . 4 Space Marine Bikes + Meltagun x2
. . . . 1 Attack Bike + Multi-melta
. . . . 1 Sergeant + Power Fist

Space Marine Bikes (6#, 210 pts)
. . 4 Space Marine Bikes + Plasma gun x2
. . . . 1 Attack Bike
. . . . 1 Sergeant

Fast Attack:
Land Speeder (2#, 180 pts)
. . 2 Land Speeder Typhoons

Land Speeder (2#, 200 pts)
. . 2 Land Speeder Typhoons + 2 Multi-melta




Last edited by dusktiger on Thu Dec 22, 2011 10:13 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : fixed alot of mistakes i missed when posting this originally)

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Re: 1500 Biker Army

Post  Lore Weaver on Wed Dec 21, 2011 2:03 pm

I like it.

The concept of a Biker army has always appealed to me.

Do you need to take the Khan guy (Whitescars dude) to count bikers as troops?

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Re: 1500 Biker Army

Post  dusktiger on Wed Dec 21, 2011 2:46 pm

U just need a capt on a bike: khans not worth it pts wise

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Re: 1500 Biker Army

Post  Timbo on Wed Dec 21, 2011 2:48 pm

No, any Captain on a bike will do. Khan allows your army to outflank and gives his squad furious charge and hit and run, and comes with an instant-death inflicting power weapon.

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Re: 1500 Biker Army

Post  Timbo on Wed Dec 21, 2011 3:11 pm

Couple of things Mike. First of all, I like the list. I'm also putting together an all-bikers list so I've done a bit of research on the subject. Stillfrosty's Whitscars Blog is a good resource if you haven't seen it yet. The Khan is expensive, but he is only 30 points more than your captain. Is it worth 30 points to give your command squad furious charge and hit and run? Giving outflank to your speeders is just a bonus. His cool power sword is arguably better than a relic blade too. I think he's worth it, but if you're tight on points I could see an argument either way.

I would consider taking one maxed squad instead of 2 smaller ones. You lose one attack bike, but get the flexibility of being able to combat squad your bikes in an objective mission or leave them big in a kill point mission. Not a huge deal, but every little bit helps.

I'm pretty sure the company champion in your command squad cannot be given any additional wargear. Every list I've seen runs him with just a power weapon and combat shield. I believe he loses his "veteran" type when he is upgraded and thus loses the ability to get additional wargear (sort of like the apothecary who is technically not a "veteran"). I don't think you can give him wargear first and then upgrade him. He is either a veteran or not.

I'm not a fan of mixing a multi-melta with a typhoon missile launcher in your speeder squadron. I'm sure you did this because the points fit, but having one speeder that has to be within 24" and one with a range of 48" is pretty inefficient.

These are all minor quibbles. Like I said before, I'm a big fan of the biker list and I hope it performs well for you.


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Re: 1500 Biker Army

Post  dusktiger on Wed Dec 21, 2011 9:28 pm

ok, well, i've played the biker army a few times, and i can see suggestions your making that sound good in theory, but they dont pan out in practice. and yes, i've read his blog and there's things i dont agree with in his blog after having played bikers. His preference for Khan seems to be more for ascetics than practicality. and given how your lists seem to focus on taking the best cost effective unit in that FOC slot, i'm flabbergasted that you'd even consider Khan better than a biker captain. and the single multi-melta in the speeder squad was a fuckup on my part; that squad has a melta on both speeders. i'll have to edit the list for that.

EDIT: removed my long winded reply, and put it into a tactical guide type thing in the general discussion area.

here's the post on a diet; khan has nice rules, but overall, the point costs and the playability of him vs a biker capt make the captain better in most cases, especially at 1500 and lower.

if you wanna field bike squads, always give the base squad an attack bike because they operate better in these squads than alone, and plus 1 or 2 other biker models max, so you can hide them in/behind cover.

hope that's better on the eyes, robyn! Smile


Last edited by dusktiger on Wed Dec 21, 2011 11:25 pm; edited 3 times in total (Reason for editing : typos and being too damn long winded for my own good)

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Re: 1500 Biker Army

Post  Roland on Wed Dec 21, 2011 10:32 pm

2 points:

Company Champion: The FAQ version you're refering to is the INAT Faq, which is used at Adepticon etc, for the stuff GW can't be bothered to FAQ, even tho tons of people ask. That said, some ruling are questionable and it doesn't have the GW "offical RULEZ!" stamp on it:) In it's defense, Army Builder does it that way, and has for some time.

Combat Tactics: I hit on this before, a lot of people make combat tactics out to be uber-awesome and says its a major minus for the Chapter Tactics characters.

In order for combat tactics to be used you have to LOSE combat IN YOUR TURN. Then you may choose to automatically fail your morale test. THEN you have to successfully run (90% of the time you are simply having a dice off with the other MEQ guy. So 50% on average.) THEN you roll your fall back (avg 7") and your opponent rolls his consolidation (avg 3.5") and hope you beat his roll by 6.
I just don't see what the big loss is. It's successfully worked for me, maybe once, and since I had LOST combat anyway. It wasn't like I was eager to jump back in for a measly +1 attack for each dude. I get your point, Khan's stuff isn't that great for a biker army. But is Combat tactics REALLY that much better?

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Re: 1500 Biker Army

Post  dusktiger on Wed Dec 21, 2011 10:41 pm

but remember beau, bikes fall back THREE D6, not the usual 2 that most guys do; and bikers, despite the added +1 toughness, DONT like melee. you want to get away and fire your relentless guns some more. and with 3d6 fallback, you're guaranteed that unless you're a shitty roller, (jimmy, i'm looking at you buddy, Very Happy) you WILL get far enough away to consolidate and get to shoot again.

the few times i've relied on it, i was glad to have the option. and it helped me break combat, get far enough away that i was able to fire into his squad again and knock out...close to a 1/3 of the models in there that assaulted me, and THEN assault him so "I" got bonus attacks, and wiped him out.

combat tactics isn't incredible with foot slogging armies, but for fast armies on bikes, or with jump packs, its an effective tool to get out of assaults you 'will' lose, and make the odds more in your favor.

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Re: 1500 Biker Army

Post  System Commander on Wed Dec 21, 2011 10:50 pm

Ouch.... Mike.. why did you do that. The text hurt my brain.. I read the first few paragraphs.. but, it was to much. Ill leave it up.. but dude, that was way, way to long... and I dont know why you you posted all that.. in defense of the list or to dispute Tim's critique/advice?

I can gurantee that if you respond like that to a simple discussion after offering up the invitation for it by posting the list.. no one will respond again.

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Re: 1500 Biker Army

Post  dusktiger on Wed Dec 21, 2011 10:53 pm

yea i got carried away there. i was looking at it half ways into typing it and was starting to think i should just make this into a separate thread on biker tactics. there's really just 'too' much info for a reply on why i made the list that way. it sort of went from explanation to tactical guide. next time my reply gets that long, im gonna just make a new thread and say "go here".

my main problem is i try to be thurough in explaining my reasons instead of just saying "no, this is better; do this" cause i feel like i come off like an arrogant jackass when i shorthand my answers like that.

and yes, i can be a jackass; but i try to reserve those occasions when the situation calls for it. this wasnt one of them, so i overdid it in my reply so tim wouldnt think im just saying he's a poopyhead for wanting to take khan.


PS: i'll shorten up my reply and just make that whole reply into a seperate thread on biker tactics. there's some other things i think i could add in that synergize nicely with bikers that is useful info for anyone wanting to make a bike list, but that should definitely go in its own thread.

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Re: 1500 Biker Army

Post  System Commander on Wed Dec 21, 2011 11:10 pm

You bet.. that sounds like a good idea.

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Re: 1500 Biker Army

Post  Timbo on Thu Dec 22, 2011 1:10 am

dusktiger wrote:
combat tactics isn't incredible with foot slogging armies, but for fast armies on bikes, or with jump packs, its an effective tool to get out of assaults you 'will' lose, and make the odds more in your favor.

Is hit and run an effective tool for getting out of assaults?

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Re: 1500 Biker Army

Post  Timbo on Thu Dec 22, 2011 1:40 am

So here's what I don't understand. You posted a list asking for a critique. I offered a few suggestions, saying that these were possibilities. I'm pretty sure I wasn't trashing your list or anything. In fact I said I liked it, and offered a few suggestions to fine-tune it, not make radical changes. Why so defensive? I didn't say Khan is a must-have, I said he has some definite advantages over a regular biker captain. These advantages come with an associated cost. The way you built your captain, to upgrade to Khan would cost 30 additional points. You seem pretty adamant that you don't think he is worth the 30 points. I definitely think he is. I'll make my case:

The jump from initiative 4 to 5 and str 4 to 5 on a lightning claw is huge. If you are assaulting vehicles str 9 is exponentially better than str 8 with your fists/hammers. Even your regular dudes can crack rear armour with furious charge. In a marine-heavy environment (like, everywhere) these bonuses can be game-changing. You just mentioned how much you like being able to disengage from combat. Khan allows you to do this easily, then FC back in. I'm not a huge fan of outflanking bikes because they can be blocked off or chanelled where they don't want to be, but outflanking speeders is the business. That's a 36" multi-melta threat range from either table edge. Speeders are skimmers and can't be blocked off. The relic-blade captain is alright, but Khan just gives so many more possibilities.

The company champion thing was an extremely minor point. I personally wouldn't give him additional wargear because the way I see it it's a RAW issue, but I can definitely see the RAI point of view. I certainly wouldn't have a problem with it.

As for the combat squading, well I've already said enough. Your list is obviously perfect as is Wink Seriously though, please post some battle reports because I would be interested to see how it performs. If it's not too distasteful try running Khan a couple of games and do the comparison. Stillfrosty has placed highly at some pretty big events and is an accomplished player, don't be too quick to dismiss his wisdom.


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Re: 1500 Biker Army

Post  Lore Weaver on Thu Dec 22, 2011 8:05 am

As an Ork player, I can attest to th awesomeness of S9 fists on the assault.

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Re: 1500 Biker Army

Post  dusktiger on Thu Dec 22, 2011 10:04 am

well hit and run does give you the option to pull out of an assault; your right; but only khan's squad gets it. combat tactics will allow 'all' your units to do it if you feel the assault they're in is too hot. and if you believe that your opponent is going to be nice enough to only assault the unit khan's in, and not all your other bikers that are geared to shooting, then you're in for a world of hurt and disappointment. but your missing the emphasis of what im saying about khan; for games 1500 and lower, khan costs too much. OVER 1500, he gets better and better as the total point limit increases. you should stay away from HQ choices that peak around the 200~ mark in 1500pt games when there's a cheaper version of them that does the primary task he does. i just want an effective HQ that allows bikes as troops, and a capt with a str 6 blade is cheaper than khan for that. and i only dropped hellfire rounds on him cause i thought i had an extra 10pts but since i missed putting 2 multi meltas in that one speeder squad AND making both typhoons (those who play me know all my speeders have typhoons glued onto them), he's actually 165 so now he's a 40pt difference between him and khan.

oh, and after a clarification in the GK FAQ, it doesnt make your fists and hammers str 9; it makes them str 10; the +1 str bonus, and any other bonuses to str, is applied before the weapons double your str value. so getting furious charge on those weapons means a +2 bonus str. i believe it was explained when i asked for further explanation on that, that the reason is because that way the str bonuses are swallowed up by how the weapon doubles your str to a maximum of 10, so that players dont get the wrong idea and try to add +1 str to a weapon that's already at str 10 since there's situations where you can make that happen now.

so those of you with furious charge units with fists and hammers, now's the time to give out a WOOT

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Re: 1500 Biker Army

Post  Lore Weaver on Thu Dec 22, 2011 10:16 am

The Base Rulebook specifically states that any additive bonuses to Strength are applied after multiplicative bonuses.
Furious Charge Fists on a model with S4 (like an Ork Nob) come in at S9, not S10.

The GK FAQ must be in error.

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Re: 1500 Biker Army

Post  miv305 on Thu Dec 22, 2011 1:18 pm

Not sure what FAQ ruling is being referred to in the post but...

In the Grey Knight Codex it specifically states that the Hammerhand bonus applies before you double up based on wargear, etc., that's why they're str 10 not 9.

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Re: 1500 Biker Army

Post  System Commander on Thu Dec 22, 2011 2:15 pm

Furious charge definitely adds the +1 after str is doubled, so str 9. Its been this way for years.

They made a specific change with the grey knights ruling that hammerhamd and might of titan can be doubled. Why they did it.. not sure.. But its a unique case. You'll have to double check where you read that.


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Re: 1500 Biker Army

Post  Timbo on Thu Dec 22, 2011 10:11 pm

Agreed str 9 on a FC fist. And wounded attack bikes get to shoot two weapons Wink

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Re: 1500 Biker Army

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