Why 2000pts is lame

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Why 2000pts is lame

Post  Lore Weaver on Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:45 am

I read an article by TastyTaste about why 2000pt games suck and why the hobby is worse off for it. He basically made a bunch of points I agree with, and I was going to link it over here... but now I can't find it.

The crux was that 2000 pts takes a lot of finesse and strategy out of list building. He mentioned that this change was brought about by the 'Ard boyz tourney, and other tournaments, and thus became the standard at the FLGS. He then went North to Canada and played some games in Europe, and enjoyed the smaller point games.

Anyway, it was interesting. If I find it, I'll post the link.

Edit: According to my grammar, Europe is in Canada.

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Re: Why 2000pts is lame

Post  System Commander on Mon Dec 19, 2011 10:58 am

Id love to hear what some of the points are. I really enjoy 2000 points when i have the time. For me though, it means at 2000 poinys i can take a few units that are "fun" and not neccessarily over the top.

When im playing chaos, it usuallymeans i can bring some bikes or raptors, something ivwouldnt normally use, but enjoy using from time to time.

I curious though why 2000 would be different than 1700 or 1500, you still have to put alot of tjought into what your brjnging, what yout opponents might bring, etc.Ill fo see ifbi can track the article down.

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Re: Why 2000pts is lame

Post  Roland on Mon Dec 19, 2011 11:18 am

I think there is a difference between 1500+500 of fun and 2000. I think anything between 1000-2000 is doable, but I feel 1500 is probably best for balance/time/etc. It's big enough you aren't TOO limited in what you can take, but not so big that you can take everything. (The seemingly ever-present Termie Libby w/ Hammernator bodyguard in a Crusader is doable at 2000, but is a tight squeeze @ 1500.) Of course this also gets into the eye of the beholder between a "friendly" list and a "competitive" list.

I'm actually trying to get a list down for 1000/1500/2000 @ different power levels. That way I can just bring one bag and it'll be like "Oh Tim wants no-holds-barred? Here's my 1500 pt A-game list" or "Mike wants a 1000 point beer n pretzels game? Got it and here's my Dev Squad w/ one of each heavy weapon."

If it's the article I'm thinking of, it's an older one right? I remember seeing one like that about a year or so ago.

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Re: Why 2000pts is lame

Post  Lore Weaver on Mon Dec 19, 2011 11:52 am

Roland wrote:... "Mike wants a 1000 point beer n pretzels game? Got it and here's my Dev Squad w/ one of each heavy weapon."

Some people might put that in their "A" list. (Edit: Not this bear, or "The Kid", he doesn't like devastators.)

"The Kid" always seems to take the hammernator squad in a crusader, even at 750 pts. *laughs* He's hilarious.

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Re: Why 2000pts is lame

Post  Roland on Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:43 pm

Agreed. It's all a matter of taste. I have a hard time reconciling what I like asthetically (Different weapons, One sgt w/ a PF, another w/ SB and PW, etc... sort of anti spam) w/ what works on the table. Luckily my collection is big enough I can do both:)

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Re: Why 2000pts is lame

Post  Selik on Mon Dec 19, 2011 1:14 pm

I find that a 2000pt game is time consuming but can still be fun to play if the time is available. it just means you usually bring almost everything an army has to offer in the dex.

I like the smaller point games as time is not such a big factor. I am still trying to build a 1500pt SOB list...I know chicks with guns somewhat suck...a lot.

I can see why man y people do not like the 2000pt games. My firend always wants to play big games 2000pt+++ so that he can bring his whole army list out.


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Re: Why 2000pts is lame

Post  System Commander on Mon Dec 19, 2011 2:04 pm

I dont even consider 2000 a large game though... although i do consider 1500 points a smaller game.

I think what i like at 2000 is that if you lose a unit in the first turn from some lucky/unlucky rolling, its not devastating. You can still bounce back.

For tounaments, yeah 1500 is mandatory.. but for fun, if you have 2-3 hours, 2000 is great.

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Re: Why 2000pts is lame

Post  miv305 on Mon Dec 19, 2011 2:25 pm

System Commander wrote:Id love to hear what some of the points are. I really enjoy 2000 points when i have the time. For me though, it means at 2000 poinys i can take a few units that are "fun" and not neccessarily over the top.

When im playing chaos, it usuallymeans i can bring some bikes or raptors, something ivwouldnt normally use, but enjoy using from time to time.

I curious though why 2000 would be different than 1700 or 1500, you still have to put alot of tjought into what your brjnging, what yout opponents might bring, etc.Ill fo see ifbi can track the article down.

How did Dom crack Robin's account???

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Re: Why 2000pts is lame

Post  da bear on Mon Dec 19, 2011 2:28 pm

lmao, you noticed that as well, he must be having an off day lol

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Re: Why 2000pts is lame

Post  Rhaevyn on Mon Dec 19, 2011 2:30 pm

At 2000 points, i start running out of FOC slots with viable options.

Its doable, but after about 1850, i just feel like I'm adding "stuff".

Not like the old days in Fantasy, where i could load up another 500 points of just magic items.

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Re: Why 2000pts is lame

Post  System Commander on Mon Dec 19, 2011 4:32 pm

Ack, sorry guys. This forum is not compatible at all with my phone. I thought i fixed up my mistakes but man was that bad.

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Re: Why 2000pts is lame

Post  Timbo on Mon Dec 19, 2011 6:16 pm

I think the unit density on a 4'X6' table in a 2000 point game takes a bit of the deployment and maneuver element out of the game. Also it makes lists building much easier. At 1500 points a player has to make choices or compromises, but at 2000 or even worse 2500 they can just take everything. In smaller games some of the weaker books can cover up their weaknesses by skimping on or completely ignoring a problem portion of their FOC. For example, CSM could not take any fast attack choices and do fine. However at 2500 when they're looking across the table at a IG or DE army with a full FOC they will be at a huge disadvantage.

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Re: Why 2000pts is lame

Post  dusktiger on Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:43 pm

true, but there are other codexs that dont 'really' shine until you get up into the 2000-2500pt range where they become incredibly deadly and every bit as horrific as their fluff makes them out to be, such as dark eldar and tyranids. those are 2 i can think of offhand that the bigger the point limit, the more terrifying the codex becomes to your opponent. i imagine grey knights could also be one, given some of the options you have in that codex. im sure robyn could come up with some scary scary inquisition henchmen lists at 2250 for example if he wanted to.

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Re: Why 2000pts is lame

Post  Timbo on Mon Dec 19, 2011 9:30 pm

I agree that DE's sweet spot would be a little higher than some other armies, but they can build a nasty list at anything 1750+. The thing with DE is that their heavy support is pretty much locked at 330 points with 3X ravagers so the bigger the points, the less% of their list that those take up. Same thing with Grey Knights and their psyflemen dreadnoughts. Those armies basically start with those spammed units and fill around them.

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Re: Why 2000pts is lame

Post  Roland on Mon Dec 19, 2011 11:42 pm

Is this..

http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2010/06/30/in-defense-of-1500-the-choices-we-make/

the post refered to?

Also some good points here: http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2010/07/21/meat-for-meta-the-truth-behind-gw-playtesting/


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Re: Why 2000pts is lame

Post  Spamus Eatus on Tue Dec 20, 2011 12:22 am

Beau and Dan can attest that Nids scale up VERY well at big point values. Never having to worry about synapse is nice. I also notice that at big points my Deathwing shoot up almost exponentially in nastiness. That one or two extra squads can make a massive difference. This might be subjective or biased of course Very Happy

Personal experience is that once you hit 2000 or even 1850 points, it's a good idea to extend the table out to 7 or 8 feet. This allows lots more room to move around and for some armies, deploy.

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Re: Why 2000pts is lame

Post  Lore Weaver on Tue Dec 20, 2011 12:42 am

Roland wrote:Is this..

http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2010/06/30/in-defense-of-1500-the-choices-we-make/

the post refered to?

Also some good points here: http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2010/07/21/meat-for-meta-the-truth-behind-gw-playtesting/


Similar tone, different post. I can't find it either...

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Re: Why 2000pts is lame

Post  Timbo on Tue Dec 20, 2011 1:44 am

Spamus Eatus wrote:Beau and Dan can attest that Nids scale up VERY well at big point values. Never having to worry about synapse is nice. I also notice that at big points my Deathwing shoot up almost exponentially in nastiness.

I agree about Tyranids, because their troops provide no antitank and they have to take troops. So at larger points values they can get more anti-tank (still probably not enough, but at least some) while still taking their mandatory core. I'd have to disagree with the Deathwing. Their troops provide anti-tank, and tough scoring units. These units are tougher to deal with in smaller games. Just taking more of the same in larger games does not give you any more power or synergy. In fact your opponents will have more stuff able to deal with terminators in larger games.

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Re: Why 2000pts is lame

Post  dusktiger on Tue Dec 20, 2011 10:44 am

oh, thems fighting words; ben, are you gonna take that lying down? i think this calls for a 2250 deathwing vs timwing match to see who's right!

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Re: Why 2000pts is lame

Post  Lore Weaver on Tue Dec 20, 2011 11:20 am

What's the "Timwing" list? 3 Thunderfire Cannons and 3 Bobs? (Bob, the Dreadnaught, plain melta-fist guy, so named by "The Kid").

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Re: Why 2000pts is lame

Post  miv305 on Tue Dec 20, 2011 12:34 pm

Timwing is a simple formula:

Step One: Identify the cheapest shooting option in each force org slot;
Step Two: Spam the holy hell out of said unit(s);
Step Three: Marvel at your tactical acumen Razz

Seriously though I'm on board with Tim in regards to Deathwing armies, they are really potent at lower points values especially when playing against other "all-comers" lists.

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Re: Why 2000pts is lame

Post  Timbo on Tue Dec 20, 2011 5:38 pm

Mike is mostly right, but I don't restrict myself to playing the top 3 armies in the game while marvelling at my tactical acumen Wink Space marine troops are so lacking compared to the troop choices in the other, stronger codexes (a lot like Necrons, actually) I just try to play with the bare minimum that will get me by and maximize the other choices. I don't think space marines scale up very well because I've already maxed out my other FOC slots. Therefore all I can really add is an HQ and more crappy troops. Adding more troops with deathwing isn't anything special, but it's certainly not a hindrance either. All of that being said, I'd be happy to have Ben a game at 2250! We may have a Chaplain Cassius sighting!

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Re: Why 2000pts is lame

Post  gluvzer on Tue Dec 20, 2011 8:50 pm

Timbo wrote: We may have a Chaplain Cassius sighting!

I thought he was reserved for 675 point games Razz

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Re: Why 2000pts is lame

Post  Timbo on Wed Dec 21, 2011 12:54 am

Heh. 675 and 2250 only. Those are Cassius' specialties.

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