broken armies???

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broken armies???

Post  Selik on Fri Apr 15, 2011 12:17 pm

I think I am getting tired of hearing that an army/codex is broken. The codex/army works fine for which ever army you have.
I can not compare my WH to Tyranid for example. All the gear is different and units are different. Yes the main rules are what set out how all units in an army will function with assault or movement such as running etc. just because my points per model do not work out to be the same as another codex army or the gear a model gets varries is hard to justify to say that a codex is broken. Every army has its advantages and that is what should be exploited.

This is not saying that no codex should be updated as many do need a few updates to be more relevant to the new rules in the main rule book. Some codexes are just old, but I have found out with the many various games I have played that older coexes have still done well in tournaments and such. I have seen Tau army come up on top and win a tournament in my local hobby stor in Vancouver in 2009. CSM came in second and my WH came in third.

I think the reason why I am tired of hearing how a army is broken because there are so many blogs discussing a "broken" army and how to fix it. Lets play some games and use your army to its best advantages....roll some dice, you might be surprised. and mos tof all have some fun playing the game.









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Re: broken armies???

Post  System Commander on Fri Apr 15, 2011 2:14 pm

I understand what you're saying.. you're tired of hearing people complain.

Hey, I can sympathize to a degree.. if you don't like the army, don't play it.. true enough. However, GW's policy of setting something loose into the world and just letting it stagnate drives so many people insane.. especially when you see games like Warmachines doing full revamps regularly. Even more so for the speciality lines which see a mini released for each one like.. oh once every five years. .. and people still play them all the time.

Take an army like the necrons.. while fun and a great looking.. they find it really, really hard to win .. especially in a tournament. That being said.. most necron players are aware of this and are just playing them because they love em and want to have fun.

I don't think there's any problem at all discussing ideas .. especially regarding armies.. its the nature of 40K and there's not much you can do it about it.

Now, are you directing this toward the community here or in general what the internets across the world are disscussing? The internets as a whole are really, really bad at this. Any of the main message boards will only accept a couple of the armies right now as being the elite of the elite.. and then.. everything else is sh!t. Take the Dark Eldar for example.. new book.. strengths/weaknesses, etc. But the internets are now ganging up on them the opposite way and saying that they are a sub par codex at best..

In fact, listening to nets.. Guard, Space Wolves and Blood Angels are the only "strong" armies right now.. everything else is crap.

I think these things are good to discuss though.. at the very least, if your grumpy because GW hasn't you updated your codex in a decade.. where else can you complain it? Your wife/girlfriend doesn't want to hear it.. only your good buddies on that local hobby store can sympathize with you.

Go Grey Knights !





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Re: broken armies???

Post  Timbo on Fri Apr 15, 2011 2:20 pm

I don't think anyone is saying that a codex is broken. Some are definitely stronger than others. Daemons in Warhammer Fantasy being the possible exception. The older 40K codexes are in need of updates badly and are simply not competitive anymore in a tournament setting. Your quoting results of a tournament at an LGS 2 years ago doesn't really change that fact. At an LGS you will have a wide array of playing ability and experience present, and the tournament will have a small sample size. A good player will usually beat a lesser one, even if the lesser player has a better list, or even a list taken from the internet. The inferior player cannot use his army to the best of his ability. There you can see anomalies like Tau or Chaos finishing on the podium. Where the codexes make a difference is in a setting where all of the players are roughly equal in terms of ability. Adepticon took place two weeks ago and featured hundreds of participants from all over the US. These are some of the best players in the country and guess who was in the final? Space Wolves versus Imperial Guard with the Wolves taking first place.

None of this means that you can't enjoy playing any army you want. Nobody locally (especially myself Razz ) would be competitive at Adepticon, or in a National setting. Heck, we even had a Tau player finish first in our league last year. That player had a solid build, knew his army inside out, and simply outplayed most of his opponents. I think he got a little bit of extra satisfaction from winning with Tau, I know I would! Just buying an IG or Wolves codex doesn't make you a better player, only playing can do that. But when you're an elite-level player, a codex can make all the difference.

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Re: broken armies???

Post  Selik on Fri Apr 15, 2011 3:04 pm

It might be nice to hear from people who do play these out dated armies as to what type of lists they play that they figure is the strong point of their army. It is always good to hear other tactics etc that are more on a possitive side of things.

the strong points for my WH army are
-one of the best tanks in the game - the exocist - 1d6 str 8 ap 1 shots and front armor of 13
-one of the best fast attack transports for anti infantry - the immoplator move 12 in fire twin liked hvy flamer and a dominion squad with 4 flamers and two bolters as well in the squad
-seraphim jump infantry with twinliked infero or flame pistols and all have twin liked bolt pistols.
-the ability to have 20 sisters on foot is also a nice option.

I really do like my sisters of battle.....even if they are almost all metal.

most my lists have (points allowing)
2 exorcist tanks
dominion squad with immolator
seraphim squad
2 squads sisters of battle one in a rhino
1 squad adeptus arbites with represor
a celestian squad
and 2 hqs - either inquis lord and henchman or palentine with jump pack and a cannones with the celestian squad.

I have done well with fielding these units.

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Re: broken armies???

Post  Roland on Fri Apr 15, 2011 3:22 pm

This:

Timbo wrote:At an LGS you will have a wide array of playing ability and experience present, and the tournament will have a small sample size. A good player will usually beat a lesser one, even if the lesser player has a better list, or even a list taken from the internet. The inferior player cannot use his army to the best of his ability. There you can see anomalies like Tau or Chaos finishing on the podium.

I think this is the thing a lot of ppl (including blogs like BoLS, etc.) seem to forget. To the "average" gamer, which codex you are using or playing against makes very little difference. My close games have come down to a few dice rolls, my bad losses have usually be either chronic bad rolling or me playing my army stupidly (usually the latter). In a sense you are both right, to the average gamer, there IS NO broken codex, it comes down to who is a better player. I'm pretty sure I can take a Lash Prince/Oblits, a Leafblower list, or a Razorspam list or whatever the latest internet darling is, and lose to 'Crons (which I believe are currently the dex thats full of the suckiest bunch of sucks who ever sucked). I suck so bad right now my handle should be General Hoover.

As skill levels increase tho, certain codexes just preform better or worse. I can't remember the list breakdown at Adepticon, but I'd be surprise if anyone even brought Necrons.

Summary: Good general/bad dex > bad general/good dex

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Re: broken armies???

Post  System Commander on Fri Apr 15, 2011 4:45 pm

Oh, those poor necrons..

I was wiped off the board many, many times when they first came out when Id play Imperial guard.. the gauss weapons were hell for vehicles when glancing hits could destroy them..

I cant wait to see them with a new book.. I love the idea for army, and I loved playing against them. I'll prob never put an army together myself, but I cant wait to them updated..

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Re: broken armies???

Post  Veyure on Fri Apr 15, 2011 7:14 pm

I played Necrons back when they were the raider army from WD. They were neat and awesome to me and when they updated with a codex it was like a bright light opened to my world. They kicked ass in most of my games and I rarely lost. Everything got back up and my opponents cried. The only way for me to lose would be to phase out. IT was great.

Anyways, I hate complainers and I've been told by an opponent more than once that when I use Dante or Mephiston that they are broken or unstoppable. That thought is why I use them. They cost overly much for what use they have, but I have an affinity for elite armies and putting all my points into a few models appeals to me. Everything has a balance whether it be points or negative attributes or even a lack of a rule which would make it better (Dante should be Eternal and Mephiston should have a inv), but using all of an armies strengths likely makes an army appear broken to someone who doesn't face them often. I don't analyze codex like some of the super-nerds out there, so maybe I'm out to lunch.

Rules may have a large influence on how an army performs, but 1. It's a DICE game & 2. There is always a counter.

I remember when the forums out there always focused on the best way to counter a specific new dex using a particular army. I only frequent this board now so I'm not sure what the topics include in the outside webs.

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Re: broken armies???

Post  smackman on Sat Apr 16, 2011 6:13 am

I wrote a really long post arguing both sides of this debate and thought I don't care about this so I deleted it and replaced it with my picks for top 3 codex's:

Guard
Orks
Space Wolves

(Grey Knights might be really good, I don't know I haven't played against them)

My Picks for Worst 3 (least competitive) Codex's in current existence:

Necrons
Witch Hunters
Tyranids

(Whatever dex Matt is holding while at the den also makes the bottom 3)

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Re: broken armies???

Post  Roland on Sun Apr 17, 2011 11:34 am

I love me some Grey Knights. Having all power weapons means, in my mind,

Take your FNP, shine it up REAL nice, turn that sumbitch sideways......

Thats said has anyone else read the blog from the guy who took GK to the UK throne of skulls. He was playing them as Pre-Heresy 1K Sons.

http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?p=132923

Played GK, Chaos Marines (1K Sons) and Tau. He beat Tau, but they gave him fits. GK vs GK was nasty apparently, ended in a draw. Beat CSM pretty solid.

Said he played MechGuard for fun after and "it wasn't pretty."

I think someone said something about 40K becoming Rock Paper Scissors. I think they are trying to do this, with at least one army you are going to be great against, and one you are going to suck at.


Last edited by Roland on Sun Apr 17, 2011 11:40 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : My 3 year old helped, then I found the link.)

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Re: broken armies???

Post  System Commander on Mon Apr 18, 2011 9:24 am

The message boards in general have deteriorated back down to alot of net hate and whining and everything else irritating you can think of.

Of course, not everyone is like that.. but those who take the time to write responses to post are generally those that just want to bang someone down. Its exactly what the GW forums were like right before they shut them down.

There are a few good ones I still frquent though.. I like Bolter and Chainsword and Throne of Skulls .. because they are pretty low key. I still go past BOLS a few times a day to see whats happening.. but geez, those guys get so much freaking heat.. I cant wrap my head around it.

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Re: broken armies???

Post  Roland on Mon Apr 18, 2011 9:48 am

I like B&C and BoLS... that said B&C can sometimes be a little overbearing, mainly because of the power armor focus. They could really benefit from a "General Discussion" thread.
BoLS: I think they get so much hate for a variety of reasons. The percieved power-gamer vibe (when it seems to be a few individuals in their group). The 50/50 good/crappy article ratio. Giving birth to the Leafblower phenomenon. Advertising their own con (although from word of mouth, it was a GREAT con). I think they get the most because they seem to think their "meta" is everyone else's as well.... Not every gaming group plays nothing but Leafblower/RazorSpam/TWC lists. I don't think they do either, but their most prominent players in their group seem to. "Seem to" is the appropriate word. I never got a chance to stop by Dallas when I was living in Texas, so I never saw what the actual group was like, and I'm betting 99.9% of the internets don't know what they are really like either.

The problem with most forums, is that the most intelligent poster is not the the one most seen, it's the loudest one.

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Re: broken armies???

Post  Darksfear on Mon Apr 18, 2011 12:53 pm

I can't help but chuckle when I read this post. As somebody who specialized in the old stuff for a long time I've always enjoyed the 'broken' vs 'underpowered' arguments that come up between the codexs. Now I know why people hate on the necrons so much, they are a very hard to use codex. I must admit though the temptation to buy them and try to win a tourny or the league with them has been very strong. I have a very solid necron list written up. Hell I borrowed alex's necrons to put my list against his double landraider vulcan list and mopped the floor with him. Good times Razz .I just hate investing in a codex that I only enjoy playing a single army for. I like variation, which is why I play tau and dark eldar. I have about a 100 different lists written up for both and can field them all.

What I can't understand is why people hate on the WH codex so much. I'm not gonna say they are the top codex or anything, but from what I've seen of WH they carry themselves quite well. I might be biased cause my roomate Jim plays WH, but honestly I find they are a very versatile army and you gotta admit being able to score invul saves for whole squads in melee with faith points is just nasty. There could be something I'm missing, and if anybody wants to enlighten me about why they don't hold up feel free. As it stands I have no idea why they are being ranked at the bottom of the list.

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Re: broken armies???

Post  System Commander on Mon Apr 18, 2011 4:57 pm

I personally think Witch Hunters aren't towards the bottom They still have alot of good options in the book.. especially against Mech lists when they can tote around all that melta and the exorcists are great. And the seraphim.. they always manage to mess up a few of my units ...

Where they tend to suffer is just that darn toughness three thing. Keep on dumping tons and tons of shots into them and the power armour just can't keep up, and some armies can sure pump out a ton of shooting now.

Time for an upgrade, sure enough. . however, at least they dont suffer from some of the downsides in the overall change of the game.. like necrons not being to destroy vehicles with glancing hits anymore.. Oh.. poor necrons..

Now there's rumours that Black Templars might be after Necrons.. *headshake*


Last edited by System Commander on Tue Apr 19, 2011 4:50 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: broken armies???

Post  Guest on Tue Apr 19, 2011 1:49 pm

I don't beleive that people think CSM is too broken right now given the emergence of Space Wolves and Blood Angels;

But often I feel that some players are bitter whenever they encounter "Lash of Submission" and call that terribly broken. Psychic Deterrrants work great on it (24" same range as a Hood). And it still can't touch squads in transport.

I do however abolutely beleive that some codex are better than others like Basic Space Marines vs ANY other Marine codex, or Tyranids and Necrons

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