1500pt Ultramarines

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1500pt Ultramarines

Post  Roland on Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:31 am

Trying to figure out what to run. A few option would be dropping the LR for a third tact squad in a rhino, (or possibly a Sternguard in a Rhino), swapping the Chappy and Assault Termies for a Termie Captain and Std Termie (footslogging them) and swapping the Dread for a 5 man tact w/ PF. Would consider dropping the second Dev squad to 4 ML, but I'm not sure how many I have.

1500 Pts - Space Marines Roster

Total Roster Cost: 1500

HQ: Space Marine Chaplain (1#, 130 pts)
1 Space Marine Chaplain, 0 pts
1 ...in Terminator Armour, 130 pts

Elite: Terminator Assault Squad (6#, 450 pts)
4 Terminator Assault Squad, 160 pts = 4 * 40
1 Sergeant, 40 pts
1 Land Raider, 250 pts

Elite: Dreadnought (1#, 115 pts)
1 Dreadnought, 115 pts = (base cost 105 + Assault Cannon 10)

Troops: Tactical Squad (11#, 230 pts)
9 Tactical Squad, 147 pts = 9 * 16 (base cost 16) + Sergeant 51
1 Sergeant, 48 pts = (base cost 23) + Power Fist x1 25
1 Rhino, 35 pts

Troops: Tactical Squad (11#, 235 pts)
9 Tactical Squad, 152 pts = 9 * 16 (base cost 16) + Meltagun 5 + Sergeant 51
1 Sergeant, 48 pts = (base cost 23) + Power Fist x1 25
1 Rhino, 35 pts

Heavy Support: Devastator Squad (5#, 150 pts)
4 Devastator Squad, 127 pts = 4 * 16 (base cost 16) + Missile Launcher x4 60 + Sergeant 26
1 Sergeant, 23 pts

Heavy Support: Devastator Squad (5#, 190 pts)
4 Devastator Squad, 167 pts = 4 * 16 (base cost 16) + Heavy Bolter x2 30 + Lascannon x2 70 + Sergeant 26
1 Sergeant, 23 pts

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Re: 1500pt Ultramarines

Post  Timbo on Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:52 am

I like everything but the devastator squads. Those units really pay a premium for their heavy weapons and are way too easy to kill IMHO. Another tactical squad in a rhino is always good, as are predators. Instead of heavy bolters in a dev squad you can get two destructors (with 4X heavy bolters and 2X autocannons) for the same cost. If you wanna kill vehicles, I've had great success with attack bikes.

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Re: 1500pt Ultramarines

Post  Guest on Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:31 am

1st I'd say give the dreadnaught 2x Twin linked Autocannons (125 points so +10), Ultramarines are a shooty-army, why even equip the dread' for short range?

2nd I would give both the tac squads a Meltagun and a Lazcannon, combat squad them and have the meltas go in the rhino with the champ towards objectives, while the laz cannon sits and fires from cover. (+5+10+10=+25 as you already have 1 melta included)

3rd break up your 2nd Dev squad. Put your Lazcannons into the troops (since they pay only 10 points for a lazcannon, not 35) and shelf the other 3.
--Replace with a predator.

Either 85 points for a destructor predator (2xHeavy Bolter 1 Auto) which leaves (190-85=-105)
Or 120 points for a combi-predator (2xLazcannon 1 Auto) which leaves (190-120=-70)

If you choose the destructor, that leaves (105-25-10=70 xtra points), so you can add 4 bodies to the devastator squad (to help them survive longer)
If you choose the combination, that leaves (70-25-10=35xtra points), so you can add 2 bodies to the devastator squad (to help them survive longer)

That leaves your gunline as::

2x Twin-link Lazcannon
1x Twin Link Heavy Bolter
2x Troop Lazcannon
2x Twin-link Autocannon
4x Missile Launcher
1x Turret Autocannon
2x (sponson Heavy Bolter or sponson Lazcannon)
==14 heavy weapons

And then for assault there is still 5xtermies with a chappy in a Land Raider.

That is how I would alter your army without changing the build. All guns are protected, either 10 man squad in a rhino, or has ARM 12-14, or is in cover with xtra bodies before guns are removed and you have a nice assault squad with 21.5" threat range from the Raider

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Re: 1500pt Ultramarines

Post  dusktiger on Thu Mar 03, 2011 1:55 pm

Your list as it stands
=========================================
HQ:
Space Marine Chaplain in Terminator Armour

Elite:
Terminator Assault Squad + Land Raider
Dreadnought + Assault Cannon

Troops:
Tactical Squad + Power Fist + Rhino
Tactical Squad + Meltagun + Power Fist + Rhino

Heavy Support:
Devastator Squad + Missile Launcher x4
Devastator Squad + Heavy Bolter x2 + Lascannon x2
=========================================

My suggested revisions
=========================================
HQ:
Librarian in Terminator Armour + Storm Shield + Null Zone & Avenger

Elite:
Terminator Assault Squad (3x Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield) + Land Raider Crusader
Dreadnought + Assault Cannon

Troops:
Tactical Squad + Lightning Claw + Rhino
Tactical Squad + Meltagun + Lightning Claw + Rhino

Heavy Support:
Thunderfire Cannon
Predator + Heavy Bolter Sponson
Predator + Heavy Bolter Sponson
=========================================

Now, bear with me, as I hate to nit-pick and change other peopleís lists, or have them tear apart mine and tell me to use entirely different units (ones I usually donít own), buuuut, we both know you have a LOT of stuff so my guess is you have the flexibility to do these changes, donít you.

So now Iíll explain why I suggest these changes. And I will do so WITHOUT the use of mathhammer. Because its stupid.

Your HQ choice;
The chaplain in termy armor. The model is cool, looks snazzy and I like it. But at best heís a secondary HQ choice and shouldnít be taken as a primary, though from your list I can see why you took him. The librarian is a better choice because he gives you psyker powers and defense from other psykers in a 24Ē bubble. Iíd recommend giving him some love and taking termy armor and a storm shield because itíll make him live longer and heíll hold his own placed with your terminators. Always take Null Zone as one of his powers. It forces enemies within 24Ē of him to re-roll successful invul saves they take. Its like having a bonus power weapon attack for every save they make. Very handy against armies with a lot of invul saves. (tzeentch, Iím looking at you.) Since heíll be with your Assault Terminators, take Avenger as his secondary power. You wont use it often due to Null Zone being a better power, but when fighting things without invul saves, that shooting attack is deadly against infantry, which youíll be hunting with them anyways.
Your Elites:
Assault Terminators with a Land Raider. Itís a good choice, but change your land raider choice. The Crusader will let you assault the turn they exit, and attack at the same time thanks to the frag assault launchers. Plus youíll have this nice little bonus; any weapon with STR 4 is considered a defensive weapon, and can therefore be shot even if the vehicle has moved. That means you can move 6Ē, fire the TL Assault Cannon as normal, use the Machine Spirit to fire the optional Pintle Multi-Melta, and then the Hurricane Bolters all fire as if you hadnít moved. Since youíre going to be hunting infantry anyways, the Land Raiderís onboard weapons may as well compliment that. Now for your Terminators, Iím guessing you took the standard of 3 with ThunderHammers & StormShields, and 2 with Lightning Claws to take advantage of all the 3+ Invul Saves. The change is free and it only improves their chances in combat so its silly not to. If you were taking Vulkan, Iíd say make them all Hammers cause they become Master-Crafted.

Dreadnought with Assault Cannon. My guess is your fielding him as a mid-field unit to hunt infantry and light armor? If so, Iíd leave him as he is. If your tank hunting, drop him back to a Multi-Melta. It seems silly taking something as its base choice, but it really is king in tank hunting. If you want him to be cover support, upgrade him to 1 or 2 TL Autocannon arms. Thatís a pair of TL STR 7 shots each. Heíll kill infantry and light armor alike. The lascannon/missile platform looks good to, but its overpriced. Another good choice if you know youíre facing a lot of infantry is a plasmacannon. Since your mounting it on a dreadnought, you get to ignore the Gets Hot! Rule.

Troops:
I see 2 things that worry me; first, only 2 troop choices instead of 3. basic rule of thumb is that its better to have 3 troops at 1500, and 4 at 2000 if you can fit them in.
Second. Powerfists on the Seargents. I see you didnít mention if your squads have Multi-Meltas. If your fielding a Meltagun and Multi-Melta, then yes take the Fist. If not, itís a point sink and better replaced with either a CombiMelta or Lightning Claw. The reason being that you donít want him rushing his shooty squad in to use that fist. Thatís better on an assault squad. And if your taking it as a deterrent to being assaulted, take the other choices I mentioned as they cost a lot less.

Heavy:
Iím shaking my head man. 2 Dev squads? They are so very overpriced and useless little bastards in the ďblueĒ codex. Even GW knows this, as the sales of the Dev boxes dropped like crazy after people saw 5th Ed come out. If you love using dev squads, buy a blood angel codex; they cost a fraction of what these squads do in it, carrying the same weapons.
So weíre getting rid of them *hits the Vortex grenade arm button and tosses it at them* MEEP!
Instead, I suggest to replace the Missile squad with a Thunderfire. This is why; its only 100pts to start, has a 5 FOOT distance, and shoots 4 shots a turn, just like before. While it cant penetrate tanks, it can do this: STR 6 shots that allow cover, STR 5 Shots that ignore Cover, STR 4 shots that make the enemy infantry move through difficult terrain, and vehicles through dangerous terrain (thus possibly immobilizing a land raider or leman russ with a piddly STR 4 weapon. You wanna live with that shame? No, but itís awesome making others live it =P)

The other squad we can replace with the same weapons, with better durability, AV 13, and less points. WHAT? Yes, you heard me. The Predator. He comes in at a Base Cost of 60 pts, with an Autocannon. Yes, AV 13 front, 11 side, and a STR 7 Heavy 2 48Ē gun. In light armor, no other army can outbeat us on tanks. Dare to name something that good at 60 pts. Didnít think so. Now give him Heavy Bolter Sponsons at +25pts. At 85pts, heís doing pretty good. Now, if you ďreallyĒ want those Lascannon shots in there, upgrade his turret to a TL Lascannon for 25pts. Heís now 110pts and just replaces ĺ of your devastator weapons. And saved you 80pts doing it. Take 2 of them and with the points saved from the thunderfire, youíre looking at a savings of either 70pts (270 out of the 340pts of the two) or 20pts (320 out of the 340 before) depending on which pair you take. Iíd suggest the Autocannon ones myself. You wonít crack AV14 with them, but you have other units that can do it for you, like melta equipped troops.

Depending on what you choose to do, you might have the spare points to take a scout squad. If you do, give them sniper rifles, and a missile launcher if itíll fit, and they can camp your home objective for you while your other guys push forward.

And donít forget Line Of Sight with Predators and Rhinos; the Predator turrets sit above your rhinos, which mean they can hide behind your rhinos til you position them where you want them on the board, and still be able to shoot each turn from behind the rhinos.

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Re: 1500pt Ultramarines

Post  Timbo on Thu Mar 03, 2011 7:47 pm

You can assault out of any land raider the turn you disembark, not just the crusader. The regular LR is a fine choice, especially if you want to stand off but still have some counterassault capability. I agree the crusader is better in a "Get Him!" army, or if you are taking a comically large terminator unit.

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Re: 1500pt Ultramarines

Post  dusktiger on Thu Mar 03, 2011 8:09 pm

oh i know they all do, that's why there was the "and assault at the same time..." after it. unlike a crusader or redeemer, the standard one doesnt give you the option of assaulting units in cover at your ormal initiative level if the unit inside doesnt come with assault grenades themselves. so with the frag assault launchers, any terminators with lightning claws, and the librarian attak at I 4 instead of I 1 like the Thunder hammers

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Re: 1500pt Ultramarines

Post  Roland on Fri Mar 04, 2011 9:55 pm

Don't worry about tearing the list apart, the only things from the original list is the ML devs, the 2 tactical squads, and one of the rhinos.

ok things I'm liking so far:
Either HQ plan works and they basically cost the same.
I had no idea a rifleman dread was that cheap. For some reason assumed they were in the Las/ML range....
Preds over the second Dev, hands down.

Things I'm not liking:
I think a list built around this "base" is lighter on bodies than I'd like. I've got what, around 36 in the list as is, and every suggestion drops that further.
I've got a lot of models, but several I don't have.

I've got two ideas: one that basically combines several of the suggestions and one that goes in a different direction.
Main list
1500 Pts - Space Marines Roster

Total Roster Cost: 1500

HQ: Space Marine Chaplain (1#, 130 pts) (COuld replace with a Libby in Termie armour and SB for same)
1 Space Marine Chaplain, 0 pts
1 ...in Terminator Armour, 130 pts

Elite: Terminator Assault Squad (6#, 450 pts)
4 Terminator Assault Squad, 160 pts = 4 * 40 (2 LC, 2 TH/SS
1 Sergeant, 40 pts (LC) (Have parts to convert to TH/SS)
1 Land Raider, 250 pts

Elite: Dreadnought (1#, 115 pts)
1 Dreadnought, 115 pts = (base cost 105 + Twin Linked Autocannon 10) (get shooting and can still get stuck in in close combat)

Troops: Tactical Squad (11#, 245 pts)
9 Tactical Squad, 162 pts = 9 * 16 (base cost 16) + Meltagun 5 + Lascannon 10 + Sergeant 46
1 Sergeant, 43 pts = (base cost 23 + Melta Bombs 5) + Power Weapon x1 15
1 Razorback, 40 pts

Troops: Tactical Squad (11#, 240 pts)
9 Tactical Squad, 157 pts = 9 * 16 (base cost 16) + Flamer 0 + Lascannon 10 + Sergeant 46
1 Sergeant, 43 pts = (base cost 23 + Melta Bombs 5) + Power Weapon x1 15
1 Razorback, 40 pts

Heavy Support: Predator (1#, 85 pts)
1 Predator, 85 pts = (base cost 60 + Heavy Bolter (each side) 25)

Heavy Support: Predator (1#, 85 pts)
1 Predator, 85 pts = (base cost 60 + Heavy Bolter (each side) 25)

Heavy Support: Devastator Squad (5#, 150 pts)
4 Devastator Squad, 127 pts = 4 * 16 (base cost 16) + Missile Launcher x4 60 + Sergeant 26
1 Sergeant, 23 pts

New list
1500 Pts - Space Marines Roster

Total Roster Cost: 1500

HQ: Captain Cato Sicarius (1#, 200 pts)
1 Captain Cato Sicarius, 200 pts

Elite: Sternguard Veteran Squad (10#, 320 pts)
9 Sternguard Veteran Squad, 270 pts = 9 * 25 (base cost 25) + Combi-Flamer x3 15 + Combi-Meltagun x2 10 + Combi-Plasmagun x2 10 + Flamer x1 5 + Missile Launcher x1 5
1 Sergeant, 50 pts = (base cost 25 + Melta Bombs 5) + Combi-Meltagun x1 5 + Power Weapon x1 15

Troops: Tactical Squad (10#, 200 pts)
9 Tactical Squad, 152 pts = 9 * 16 (base cost 16) + Meltagun 5 + Sergeant 51
1 Sergeant, 48 pts = (base cost 23) + Power Fist x1 25

Troops: Tactical Squad (10#, 200 pts)
9 Tactical Squad, 152 pts = 9 * 16 (base cost 16) + Meltagun 5 + Sergeant 51
1 Sergeant, 48 pts = (base cost 23) + Power Fist x1 25

Troops: Tactical Squad (10#, 200 pts)
9 Tactical Squad, 152 pts = 9 * 16 (base cost 16) + Meltagun 5 + Sergeant 51
1 Sergeant, 48 pts = (base cost 23) + Power Fist x1 25

Fast Attack: Assault Squad (10#, 230 pts)
9 Assault Squad, 182 pts = 9 * 18 (base cost 18) + Flamer 10 + Flamer 10
1 Sergeant, 48 pts = (base cost 28 + Combat Shield 5) + Power Weapon x1 15

Heavy Support: Devastator Squad (5#, 150 pts)
4 Devastator Squad, 127 pts = 4 * 16 (base cost 16) + Missile Launcher x4 60 + Sergeant 26
1 Sergeant, 23 pts

56 marines. The idea is that 56 3+ saves is too much for most armies to wittle down.

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Re: 1500pt Ultramarines

Post  dusktiger on Sat Mar 05, 2011 7:58 am

your second list is interesting. i was thinking about suggesting sternguard to you actually, but i saw how long my post was and decided to leave them out; wordy replies tend to make my eyes glaze over so i'm usually less verbous myself. and you kept them mainly combi weapons too, that's great. their special issue ammunition is one of their strong points so its always good to let them keep the use of it. from the looks of which ones your taking, is it 2 boxes worth of the actual models? cant recall if it had combi plasmas in it or not.

and 3 scoring units at 1500pts; thats really good. and the fact theyre tactical squads gives you more flexibility as to which one camps your home objective.

if you had kantor, you could have taken him and made your sterguard a 4th scoring unit, but then your dealing with the Stubborn rule and that could bite you in assault rounds that you lose.

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Re: 1500pt Ultramarines

Post  Roland on Sat Mar 05, 2011 1:29 pm

I've got a Kantor counts-as. didn't think of it until after I posted.

The Sternguard box comes with a figure with interchangable Combi-melta/plasma, but mine are 2 dark Angels boxes with MC bolters, scopes, and termie honour shoulder pad from the command squad box. The idea that the two most customizable units in the codex are METAL, rather than plastic kits is re-=I=censor=I=-ulous.

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Re: 1500pt Ultramarines

Post  dusktiger on Sat Mar 05, 2011 4:31 pm

I know, someone seriously dropped the ball and have a major brain fart there. "these guys can take ANY of these weapons here, here, here, and here." "thats incredible! what shall we make them out of?" "zzzzz.... *startled awake* pewter! done!" FAILLLLL.

at least chapterhouse studios gave us these:
Combi-Weapon Magnetic Kit

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Re: 1500pt Ultramarines

Post  Roland on Sun Mar 13, 2011 6:56 pm

Ok new list-
Termie Capt-140 pts
Terminator Squad (5) - 230pts
-Cyclone ml
Dreadnaught (TL AC)- 115pts
Tact Squad (10)- 230
-Meltagun
-Multimelta
-Power Wpn, Meltabombs
-Rhino
Tact Squad (10)- 255
-Meltagun
-Lascannon
-Power Fist, Storm Bolter
-Rhino
Tact. Squad (5)-110
-Power Wpn, Melta Bombs
Scout Squad (5)-100
-4 Sniper Rifles
-Missile Launcher
-Camo cloaks
Predator-85
Autocannon, HB Sponsons
Predator-85
Autocannon, HB Sponsons
Devastator Sqd (5) - 150 pts
4 ML

When I go to 2000, I plan to drop the Capt and Termies for a Chaplain and Assualt Termies, a razorback for the 5 man sqd, a Godhammer Land Raider, and either a 10 man Assault sqd (PF and CS, 2 PP) or a Bike squad (6 Bikes Plasma, melta, power weapon and an attack bike)

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Re: 1500pt Ultramarines

Post  Guest on Mon Mar 14, 2011 9:34 am

I like the idea, but still dont follow why you would use teh termie capt over a librarian or a chaplain.

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Re: 1500pt Ultramarines

Post  dusktiger on Mon Mar 14, 2011 9:57 am

cause of how well it fared against tyson last week; he went toe to toe for 4 rounds on his own for the most part, and only died cause one of his own missiles scattered and hit him. was fun to watch

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Re: 1500pt Ultramarines

Post  Roland on Mon Mar 14, 2011 10:33 am

A combination of both, he did very well versus Tyson's Baron and Incubi. Not as good versus the Red Scorpion Terminator assault squad/libraran of death but then i don't think anything would.
More or less its b/ they are painted already:) and I want to have something painted for the 1500 games this week, so I have time to paint of my TAS/Chaplain/Librarian for the tournament and 2000 beyond. Also per your advice, I footslogged the Termies the last 2 games and they did much better as they were shooting. If I bring in the assault termies I want a ride for them. As it is, they plug and play very well.

Capt+Termie Squad=Chap (or Libby)+Termie Assault Squad+Razorback.

If I were to try to squeeze the LR into the 1500 list I'd drop the Dread, either the 5 man Tact squad or the scouts and not bring in the Razorback. I believe there would be 5-10 pts left.

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Re: 1500pt Ultramarines

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