So just what is the Tuff League? Well..

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So just what is the Tuff League? Well..

Post  Guest on Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:10 am

OK, so everybody's been talking about the Tuff League and even though I've been trying to steer it into a specific direction, my efforts seems to be for naught.

Following is a brief explanation of what I was/am hoping for in the league:

IS NOT:
Win at All Costs, Be as cheezy as possible, Stomp your opponents face in while laughing at his misfortune.
IS:
Competetive, Hard-fought, Powerful Lists and Solid Strategies.

What this means:
I DO want to bring my A-game, a powerful list, and play tough, competetive games where we're both trying to win, but NOT at the expense of having fun (For either player).
I do NOT want to specifically design my list to destroy one army that I know I'm about to face. I do Not want to use every possible cheezy/broken strategy, and fight for every inch of 'good for me bad for you' rules interpretation I can.

Competetive yet sportsmanly is what I was hoping it would be, but I feel that many people are just seeing it as 'the alternate place to go if you just want to play with that uber-cheap list that "normal" people won't face.'

The fact that many people keep referring to it as the place to take your cheesiest list and try your hardest to just stomp your opponent without regards to fun or coolness is not helpful. It's driving away people that I believe would otherwise be interested. Especially with the caveat of having to pick one or the other.

So am I alone in my view of what the tuff league is supposed to be? I figured I'd better ask since I'm supposed to be running it and my views don't seem to be lining up with what I'm reading.

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Re: So just what is the Tuff League? Well..

Post  smackman on Wed Mar 24, 2010 3:02 am

I think you're alone... I mean otherwise we'll need a third league for cheesy assholes like me and matt.

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Re: So just what is the Tuff League? Well..

Post  Administratum on Wed Mar 24, 2010 6:48 am

If i can offer an opinion, i would just get it up and running and see how things go. It takes time to develop any kind of league, and you will have allot to figure out as you go, and will probably have to do allot of policing to get things to the point you want them at. I started playing 40k in saskatoon about 6 years ago. Back then the league was sometimes less than 8 people... its pretty big now... but 5 years...

I have run leagues for a few different game systems, and i know how easy it can be to get discouraged when people dont see your vision, or dont comply with the rules that you implement. Again i know i have not been around for quite some time, but im pretty excited about the tuff division. The divide between hobby, and competitive play can break groups down very easily and i think that if we can find a home for both camps it will make our club one of the most dynamic and impressive around. I used to travel all over western canada when i was taking part in the hall of heros program. Nowhere did i ever see such a large and active group, and saskatoon is pretty backwater.

Trying to run an event with gamers is like herding cats. We tend to be highly individual, non conformist, and intelligent which kind of comes with the territory. However from the brief conversation we had i think that you are very capable, and that if you work at it the tuff league will be very successful. This is especially true if some of the new members continue to push and organize tournaments.

You can always shoot me a PM if there is anything that you need a hand with. Not sure i would be useful as i have been away so long, but the offer is there.

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Re: So just what is the Tuff League? Well..

Post  Veyure on Wed Mar 24, 2010 8:33 am

I can't think of anyone other than me that is voicing the "cheese league" mentality. Though how you described your wishes for your division is what the originl league was about. guys who played in fluff league didnt play to lose. Everyone wanted to win and everyone tried to win at the best of their capability. A-game is never left at home when real men compete even when it's just who can push a plastic guy with more style. When robyn was suggesting this new division i read it as a place for the well made power lists and a beat your opponent with anything you got. Those games ARE fun if both players are doing the same thing. Thats why gladiator tournaments are popular.

Anyway, i think you belong in the fluff league jim, that's what i think.

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Re: So just what is the Tuff League? Well..

Post  System Commander on Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:38 am

I think the one major thing I would like to see is the use of the word cheese out of the Tuff league.

In my mind, if your bringing a strong list, that means pulling out the stops and whipping up the strong combos. Im my view, there is no such thing as a cheesey unit in the tough league. Strong units, and strong combos.. yes, but lets stay away from the word cheese. It automatically implies a negative connotation.

I definitely agree with the whole list tailoring to destroy your opponent being bad, abusing rules for your own advantage, etc. I also think all games should strive to be fun at all times and of course sportsmanly.

However, I was also under the impression that we were doing it so there would be a place for the strongest of the strong lists to let er all hang out. If you want to play the strongest Chaos list you can think of, it might mean bringing out 9 obliterators and a couple lash daemon princes. In a regular game, this would be a bit much.. but I think in the Tuff league, it would be the place to give that a try.

Bring the cheesey lists might be a harsh word for it, but I think in the end that's what were all thinking.. no?

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Re: So just what is the Tuff League? Well..

Post  Guest on Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:59 am

Could someone post some of these really che... bad... weird... lists that have been plaguing the league?

So far I've yet to see something that made me believe it was che... like that.

A good list will usually beat a che... god damn it. it'll be a "cheesy" list because from what I've seen, the word "cheesy" simply applies to anything people either can't dream up a way to beat or something they don't like on paper.

Even just some concepts - what is cheesy/beardy to you?

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Re: So just what is the Tuff League? Well..

Post  System Commander on Wed Mar 24, 2010 10:48 am

Im ok with this dicusssion proceeding, however, easy on the criticising of othe rpeople's opinions. I've already started to see the "this army sucks" posts creeping up again, and I really don't like those. As soon as some says.. for example.. Chaos Marines suck.. then your basically saying, whoever plays Chaos marines suck. Yeah, it's a stretch, but alot of people will make that link quickly.. so stay away from that.

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Re: So just what is the Tuff League? Well..

Post  Guest on Wed Mar 24, 2010 11:02 am

Hmm, yes, that seems to happen quite a bit.

But in all honesty, I think most of this "cheesy list spamming regime" is nothing more than a boogieman.

so... some evidence would be nice, is all I'm saying.

(and no I don't think people who play chaos suck, if I thought that then I'm their malevolent king of suck for choosing to play Necrons Laughing )

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Re: So just what is the Tuff League? Well..

Post  Administratum on Wed Mar 24, 2010 11:13 am

First off you may be correct alex, i havent been around to play for a while. BUT i wanted to hop in here, and just ask that nobody actually post up any of these lists if they have been used. It will essentially single people out again, which is something i think we all want left behind.

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Re: So just what is the Tuff League? Well..

Post  Guest on Wed Mar 24, 2010 11:36 am

I myself do not quite understand the whole "cheesy" card that everyone keeps calling

There's nothing in this edition like Cheese Falcons... I mean you could point fingers at Lash of Submission, or Seer Council, or some Tau Battle Suit thing that I hear Tyson uses....

competitive play simply means not using bad ideas in my mind. As Jim put it, its bringing something you consider competitive... like I could make a list of 60 Khorne Berzerkers and Kharn the betrayer, but I don't think it would fare well,, ergo its non-competitive.

I see the Tuff league simply as something designed for players who have a decent understanding of the game's Meta, and would not like players complaining that they are too good/broken and might table their opponent if their strategy works.

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Re: So just what is the Tuff League? Well..

Post  System Commander on Wed Mar 24, 2010 12:32 pm

Cheesey is more or less just bringing an armies strongest units to bear in an overwhelming fashion, orrrrr, playing to a new armies strength becasue of a new rule or ruling..

At least thats how I view the word when I see it used.

So, lets stay away form the word, becasue it is negative.. especially in the "tuff League" context. Lets just stick with a "Strong build" or Tough List.. cheesey list is a bit harsh.

So, what do I consider strong units combos or something taking advantage of a rule or strength?

The first one I'd go with is a all biker Ork list. You can take Wazzdakka, who is strong.. and field bikes as troops. Then, take a few units if Nobs on bikes, all with different gear, a seconrd warboos on bike.. and then extra nobs for scoring if you'd like. There are definitely some counters for Nobs on bikes, and no one runs them around here, but this is my first example.

A double lash with 9 Obliterators is another one. Its still a very tough list, but you dont see it around becasue the power is typcially looked down upon, even though it still really strong. I think its the whole ooponent forcing you to bunch up for some plasma templates that usually gets people.

Those are just a couple quick examples. Now, looking at those lists, I would normally cringe thinking about having to go up against either one with my standard Chaos List. However, thinking about it in the light of the Tuff league, where bringing out strong combinations and units is what I am to think is to be encouraged, I wouldn't expect to see anything less.

We have to get away from the Cheesey stigma though. Tuff league should be strong lists against strong lists. If you want to bring out one of the above lists to try, it should be welcomed and encouraged !

If thats not what were shooting for though, then we'll have to re-think the Tuff/Fluff discussion. This is my opinion, is the only reason we went this route to begin with.. so we'd have a place for the stronger builds and lists to battle it out free of finger pointing and accusations. I plan on whipping out some what Imthinking are tougher lists and trying them out as well. Sometimes you want to bring 5 MC to the table.. I know I do!

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Re: So just what is the Tuff League? Well..

Post  Guest on Wed Mar 24, 2010 1:24 pm

what the hell is the point of the tuff league then i thought it was the plae to use unothadox tactics and controversial stratagies and units.

and i thought the fluff league was a place where painting was emphisized and. things like duel lash tri vindicator and farsight bomb were frowned upon.

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Re: So just what is the Tuff League? Well..

Post  Paz on Wed Mar 24, 2010 1:42 pm

Whoa, watch your tone there Ben.

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Re: So just what is the Tuff League? Well..

Post  smackman on Wed Mar 24, 2010 4:01 pm

Alex I literally grew a beard in anticipation of this league. My Chaos land raider thieves are coming!

Beardy List:

Khorne Chaos Lord in Terminator armour with Demon weapon and Combi-Plasma - 170pts
3 x Terminators, with landraider - 310pts
3 x Terminators, with landraider - 310pts
3 x Terminators, with landraider - 310pts
6 x Chaos Marines with landraider - 300pts
6 x Chaos Marines with landraider - 300pts
6 x Chaos Marines with landraider - 300pts

2000 Point list... I mean with all my landraider thief fluff I'm writing this list really belongs in the fluff league, but all the eye rolls just aren't worth it.

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Re: So just what is the Tuff League? Well..

Post  Guest on Wed Mar 24, 2010 4:07 pm

not much time to say a lot, getting ready to head down to the den. I can talk to people there, too if anybody wants to continue any of this in person.

Two things i need to say.

Cam - Thank you for the support, that post in particular made me feel much better about what's happening. I guess I was getting kinda frustrated a bit early.

Ben - it is, I was worried about people viewing it as being too victory-focused and not fun, but it Appears I was over-reacting to some personal frustrations.

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Re: So just what is the Tuff League? Well..

Post  Cjihad on Wed Mar 24, 2010 5:58 pm

smackman wrote:I think you're alone... I mean otherwise we'll need a third league for cheesy assholes like me and matt.


That's why I'm starting the high rollers league...

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Re: So just what is the Tuff League? Well..

Post  smackman on Wed Mar 24, 2010 7:33 pm

haha, $250 entry fee, cocaine and hookers... I like it.

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Re: So just what is the Tuff League? Well..

Post  Administratum on Wed Mar 24, 2010 10:57 pm

Yea, in the theme of the discussion, if i was not selling my chaos i would for sure join the tuff league. I have always wanted to try 2 lashes, 9 oblits and a couple of plague marine units to score.

I have not been keeping up on the crazy lists, but when i first saw thunderwolf cavalry i was thinking that 15 of those guys might be a nice way to make enemies. With no models though, im not sure if people have tried it.

Then there is the vulcan attack bike spam. Again, dont know if this is that great, but the thought of 9 attack bikes on the table with twin linked multimeltas sounds ugly. Not sure what else i would fill it out with though.

Dunno, those are a few thoughts. I thought the Fatecrusher list was another notorious one out there, but i have never experienced it.

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Re: So just what is the Tuff League? Well..

Post  System Commander on Wed Mar 24, 2010 11:04 pm

Fatecrusher would be rough, but also experneive.. you need around 6-8 bloodcrushers.

As well, I still think eventually you'd be able to take Fateweaver out with a decent amount of shooting. 3+ invul save with a reroll is good.. but I think he has 3 wounds (maybe 4?) and if you take a wound, you test on leadership 9 or die. I would pump al my shooting into him, and hope eventually he fails that leadership roll and he just dies..

.. of course then you have 8 bloodcrushers in your face.

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Re: So just what is the Tuff League? Well..

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