tailoring the list to your opponent

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tailoring the list to your opponent

Post  Guest on Tue Mar 23, 2010 5:32 pm

is it frowned upon to tailor your list to a certin oppoent?

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Re: tailoring the list to your opponent

Post  Freezingoon on Tue Mar 23, 2010 6:44 pm

I have to say it depends. If you say play a different list against orks than you do against marines that seems fine. If you play a vastly differnt list versus one players army knowing that the odds are on your side based on army comp, it would be annoying

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Re: tailoring the list to your opponent

Post  Veyure on Tue Mar 23, 2010 6:49 pm

Honestly, if you are playing a game where you both agree to try to stomp each other (such as in tuff games) then i say tailor your list to stomp your opponent. that's what those games are for.

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Re: tailoring the list to your opponent

Post  Guest on Tue Mar 23, 2010 7:01 pm

Freezingoon wrote:I have to say it depends. If you say play a different list against orks than you do against marines that seems fine. If you play a vastly differnt list versus one players army knowing that the odds are on your side based on army comp, it would be annoying

do you think it would be ok to use railguns against mech marines, and ion cannons versus maries on foot?

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Re: tailoring the list to your opponent

Post  Guest on Tue Mar 23, 2010 7:10 pm

Well, the game of 40k doesn't come with a side-board....

I would say it is fine to pick the guns that you think will be effective, but that you should make the choice BEFORE you see what models your opponent brought.

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Re: tailoring the list to your opponent

Post  Guest on Tue Mar 23, 2010 7:28 pm

canadin wrote:Well, the game of 40k doesn't come with a side-board....

I would say it is fine to pick the guns that you think will be effective, but that you should make the choice BEFORE you see what models your opponent brought.

hmmmm good point i still dont know what you will bring i know you dont play mech and that is it

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Re: tailoring the list to your opponent

Post  Guest on Tue Mar 23, 2010 7:36 pm

bensutherland333 wrote:
do you think it would be ok to use railguns against mech marines, and ion cannons versus maries on foot?
it's a bad idea to use both foot marines and ion cannons period Razz


the purpose of the "tuff" league is to be as competitive as possible... list tailoring isn't competitive at all. it's cheating in my eyes, and the anti-competitive.

build your lists to fight everyone, imho. but if you want to list tailor... just don't do it against me, please! it makes for a boring game, especially when I pull out another army and stomp your silliness Very Happy

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Re: tailoring the list to your opponent

Post  Veyure on Tue Mar 23, 2010 7:57 pm

How is bringing the most successful army you can against your opponent cheating? i still don't see this as a problem. you want to prove you're the best general, then prove it by beating the toughest list you can. You don't like it then i guess you are looking for a friendly game. i thought the idea of a tuff division was for the fact that you will try to stomp your opponent as best you can.

You'll never convince me that list tailoring is "cheating" alex. I will go as far as saying it is very cheesy and unfair if you aren't prepared for it, but if you know your opponent is bringing the gun to a knife fight, then you better go get your gun to match.

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Re: tailoring the list to your opponent

Post  Guest on Tue Mar 23, 2010 8:34 pm

Veyure wrote:How is bringing the most successful army you can against your opponent cheating?.
Depends on how you define "your opponent". One person? Stupid. Three? Less so. Infinite? Now we're talking...

I think the main issue therein lies with the fact that people don't agree with my assessment of "cheating"... so, let's call it stupid. Being a wimp. The antithesis of competitive 40K. Whatever. It's still not a measure of skill if you bring an unbalanced list just to beat one opponent. It shows that your reading comprehension is above grade schooler (no offence ben Very Happy ) and can bring a lot of AP3 weapons to fight marines or bring lots of melta because of tanks or whatever silliness.

I really wanted to avoid the whole "tournament setting" narrative but I guess I'll have to bring it out. If you go to a tournament or a random game setting with a list meant to beat only one army (ok, one style of list), well guess what, you're going to suck against the other hundreds of builds, good and bad, out there.

The Tuff league is meant to encourage competitive behaviour as though it were... a tournament setting. It's not meant for archaic power builds like dual-lash/tri-oblit or silliness like "hurr I have 180 orks" because any reasonably good and balanced list will stomp that stuff. It's a place where you're expected to bring the best of the best lists against any and all armies; a place to avoid the condescending scorn of "oh, you brought more than 4 tanks"; to bring the best list possible, not tailor and change based on your (individual) opponent.. That's not competitive, because if you did that in a tournament you'd get absolutely slaughtered.

If you don't want to respect the spirit of balanced, powerful lists combined with advanced tactics and instead want to tailor your list to whatever you're fighting... go to the fluff league.

At least that's how I read it.

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Re: tailoring the list to your opponent

Post  Guest on Tue Mar 23, 2010 8:58 pm

ok i will not be tailoring my list in that case

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Re: tailoring the list to your opponent

Post  ice on Tue Mar 23, 2010 9:06 pm

Veyure wrote:How is bringing the most successful army you can against your opponent cheating? i still don't see this as a problem. you want to prove you're the best general, then prove it by beating the toughest list you can. You don't like it then i guess you are looking for a friendly game. i thought the idea of a tuff division was for the fact that you will try to stomp your opponent as best you can.

You'll never convince me that list tailoring is "cheating" alex. I will go as far as saying it is very cheesy and unfair if you aren't prepared for it, but if you know your opponent is bringing the gun to a knife fight, then you better go get your gun to match.


Exactly Greg!

If list tailoring is cheating, then maybe you shouldn't tell people which army you plan on bringing. When you give them that information you allow for list tailoring, thus leading that person to cheating inadvertently. I would consider that using the information I have to make an informed decision, not "cheating".

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Re: tailoring the list to your opponent

Post  Veyure on Tue Mar 23, 2010 9:14 pm

see now you have it in the opposite of what the big discussion was before that flared up everyone.

First point i want to make, if you think that a list tailored to battle one type of army is self defeating in other words, going to lose to everything else, then i can't see that as cheating, or unfair since that person is going to lose.

The split in gamers for the league came about because the new guys that started joining up were playing highly competitive lists that the then current players weren't really expecting to fight. Tysons tau suit list is one of those tough lists that makes use of the strengths of the rules and is tough to break. Just as is the super powered lash list. these aren't necessarily tailored to fight a particular opponent, but neither are they overly composition score friendly.

the point im trying to make is that a competitive attitude requires the player to want to win and to win there will be some use of the strongest list you can get. You gotta keep in mind that if you knew that everyone in a tournament was going to bring foot slogging marines, im sure you would bring equipment you knew would be able to take them all out. it's because that in any given night at the den you'll likely play only one person and you're gonna know who you're up against (armies, tactics, etc.) then maybe not conciously but you will likely think about how best you can design your army to win.

If you don't do this, then good job, but i doubt that you've never thought, "I'm playing jim's mech list, i should gear up on anti tank." that is a form of list tailoring. Just like, "im fighting Randy's nids tonight, i should take more lascannons instead of meltas because i have no need for 2d6 armour pen."

Disclaimer: The names i used in this post in no way suggest that these people are at fault for anything, i use them because they are the first names that popped into my head as i was thinking of people who play particualr armies.

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Re: tailoring the list to your opponent

Post  Guest on Tue Mar 23, 2010 9:46 pm

Wow. Okay... so...

Powerful lash builds? Seriously, have you played a game of 5th edition? Ignoring the fact that the Chaos codex sucks, Lash is countered by... the biggest strength of fifth edition (mech).

And Tyson's Farsight... Have you seen him play? He is a superb general, far and above almost everyone else I've seen. The man knows his stuff; Farsight... is not a good list. So what we have are usually crappy lists run by crappy generals (in comparison to Tyson at the least) go up against a crappy list (Farsight) commanded by a good general (Tyson). It is akin to me suiciding myself out of the campaign Adam is running... I took a Best Of tyranids list and almost got tabled twice. That doesn't make the list suck, it means I suck. lol

The rest of it... we think so differently it's like speaking in another language. lol

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Re: tailoring the list to your opponent

Post  Veyure on Tue Mar 23, 2010 9:54 pm

I've actually played 5th ed quite a bit and i have played against tyson, (i happened to be using a pretty noncompetetive list at the time) and yeah he does play his list pretty well. you also forget that the lash list is suppose to include a bunch of oblits and various other units that have no problem taking down tanks. But you missed the point. you keep arguing the examples people provide for clarification and don't even touch on the actually theory behind the argument. You simply told me we are worlds apart in our thoughts. Does that mean that i win our arguscussion <-(did you notice my sweet combo word)?

Good debate here alex, don't give up Smile

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Re: tailoring the list to your opponent

Post  Guest on Tue Mar 23, 2010 10:00 pm

so alex is saying that if tailoring your list to a certain opponent you are cheating,but greg is saying that if you tailor a list it is common sense,
since it is so conflicted the only viable option is to decide myself. i chose i belive that by tailoring your list to every opponent with every unit is to extreme ex iam playing against mech guard with chaos so i will give everything that i can lascannons. but changing nothing is too little so i would think that chnging it a little ex changing your autocannon/heavy bolter predetor to a las cannon preadetor but keeping all the flamers(witch are usleless against vechicles). would be a happy mediom so for my game against cadian i will be giving one hammer head an ion cannon.


does everyone else find this fair???

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Re: tailoring the list to your opponent

Post  Guest on Tue Mar 23, 2010 10:09 pm

I'm mostly worried about getting permabanned (I can do combo words too!) because of some silliness that I'm here to attack whoever I talk with. but if you wish me to proceed... I will come back with a ripping up of your post (or attempt thereof)

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Re: tailoring the list to your opponent

Post  Guest on Tue Mar 23, 2010 10:10 pm

HolyCause wrote:I'm mostly worried about getting permabanned (I can do combo words too!) because of some silliness that I'm here to attack whoever I talk with. but if you wish me to proceed... I will come back with a ripping up of your post (or attempt thereof)

rip away

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Re: tailoring the list to your opponent

Post  Veyure on Tue Mar 23, 2010 10:19 pm

Just to be clear, i would never tailor my list for an upcoming battle. In fact if you ask people i've played with over the years, my lists are usually pretty terrible in power, but i like the look of them myself. im sure i've lost more battles than won. I don't agree with list tailoring either. The whole point of my arguing is to point out that there is a time for it and trying your best to take all games in a tuff league, espescially when composition and sportsmanship aren't being judged (though the person could be blackballed).

I was under the impression that the idea of the tuff league was to try out the super lists that people come up with without being branded as a cheeser. If that can't happen, what's the point in splitting the league?

Alex, so far you've been pretty civil with your discussion with me and that's cool. these boards are only interesting when i can discuss and argue theory of wargaming. As long as we keep it civil without being offensive (use smileys when joking around to help with tone), then we'll be fine with this discussion. and by all means, try to tear apart my argument, it'll give me something to do over my evening rum, or my morning pot of coffee (2 of my vices). Cool

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Re: tailoring the list to your opponent

Post  Guest on Tue Mar 23, 2010 10:25 pm

ok so i will not be tailring my list after all

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Re: tailoring the list to your opponent

Post  Veyure on Tue Mar 23, 2010 10:47 pm

don't play a =I=censor=I= list because you are worried about being accused of list tailoring ben. Take 2 hammerhead railguns. thats not tailoring imo, but taking good units. they are able to take on any armour, plus infantry (they have a blast setting right?).

With further thought, i can't really come up with an example of list tailoring that is any good these days. i remember the days when a new army would be released and every online discussion had an article on what could be used to take it on successfully.

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Re: tailoring the list to your opponent

Post  Guest on Tue Mar 23, 2010 10:49 pm

Indeed Be. I was actually surprised you only had 1 railgun in the game we played. Thankful for my tanks, but surprised for sure.

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Re: tailoring the list to your opponent

Post  Guest on Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:03 pm

Good sport I might add, been a while since I've had a good enough argument to keep going rather than "stop hurting me mister" or whatever. keeps the mind sharp. very good...

Veyure wrote:see now you have it in the opposite of what the big discussion was before that flared up everyone.
I apparently wasn't really there for the flaring, I was just the straw that broke the camel's back what with my brazen 'net tone and tendency to call stupid things stupid and bad things bad. Apparently people don't like their bubbles being burst. lol

First point i want to make, if you think that a list tailored to battle one type of army is self defeating in other words, going to lose to everything else, then i can't see that as cheating, or unfair since that person is going to lose.
It doesn't matter if the cheating is ultimately self-defeating. I could be changing all of my dice rolls to 3s... it may not help me, but that doesn't change the fact that I'm cheating. I think that, for some reason, you're trying to tell me that cheating is only bad if it's for an advantage?

In the example I provided, if using marines... sure changing all of the rolls to 3s means I hit all the time and pass all of my armour saves, but it means I can't do =I=censor=I= in close combat and blah blah other examples inserted here. It may not help me ultimately, but in the end it's still bloody cheatin'. lol

the point im trying to make is that a competitive attitude requires the player to want to win and to win there will be some use of the strongest list you can get. You gotta keep in mind that if you knew that everyone in a tournament was going to bring foot slogging marines, im sure you would bring equipment you knew would be able to take them all out. it's because that in any given night at the den you'll likely play only one person and you're gonna know who you're up against (armies, tactics, etc.) then maybe not conciously but you will likely think about how best you can design your army to win. If you don't do this, then good job, but i doubt that you've never thought, "I'm playing jim's mech list, i should gear up on anti tank." that is a form of list tailoring. Just like, "im fighting Randy's nids tonight, i should take more lascannons instead of meltas because i have no need for 2d6 armour pen."
I don't think I can go through this point-by-point because it (and myself) jumps around too much. So...

(as an aside... everyone wants to win, whether they're competitive or not. The difference lies in those who will truly admit it, if you ask me. Why the hell would you waste several hours of your time to push plastic men around if just to lose? Sorry, the human ego doesn't work that way)

Yes, that's the point I am trying to make too. However, we're both approaching it differently.

I am saying that a list should be able to survive "in a vacuum" if you will, a very cold approach to list building and tactics that are not influenced by outside paradigms. A good list stands on its own, through the test of time and newer codices. It doesn't require changing based on (shudder) the "metagame" - a balanced, well-rounded list should ALWAYS beat an unbalanced one given equal general skill. It may not necessarily be within the scope of one game, but certainly many games or the course of one event.

As an example... My marines. Despite not being the best marine list out there (a sacrifice I made for theme and being fun to play), they are still very good. And yanno what? Their strength level remains constant regardless of other variables.

They didn't need changing because of tyranids, blood angels, and won't need changing because of upcoming inquisition or necrons.

They didn't need changing because of joe, jim, john, josiah... half of those people don't exist... randy, ben, and the other multitudes of opponents I've faced.

When using the list, I've never thought "I wish I had taken another melta against these stupid imperial tanks" because... well, it would throw the whole thing out of balance against other armies. Ones that melta is nice against but not necessarily required (horde tyranids, for example). It's all about finding the balance, the ultimate point where the list is the best between all possible threats within 40K. It sounds fairly open-ended in terms of what you can do but it really isn't that bad, I've found.

The point is, the Tuff league should be all about encouraging a more competitive tournament format where people bring the best lists and their A game. I think it should emulate a tournament setting but not have some of the more arbitrary restrictions - for example, in a tournament you're allowed one army and list for the whole thing. Well, a tournament is supposed to last a day or only a few at the very very most... The league is supposed to last several months simply because of how it is constructed.

The league itself being a sort of a hyper-organized "testing ground" for the final tournament-esque semi-finals/finals, where you ARE only allowed one list.

It doesn't help you to tailor your way to the top. What happens then?

Tailoring is bad for competitive skill and behaviour.

I'm saying don't do it in the league - if you want to have your circle jerk tailor fests outside of the league, go hard. But in a competitive environment emulating that of a tournament... tailoring is out.



Jesus christ, I'm typing this =I=censor=I= up instead of painting my marines. Well, if anyone faces the sub army of doom tomorrow, I blame Veyure and the fun I've had blowing steam here.

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Re: tailoring the list to your opponent

Post  Guest on Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:05 pm

What i was planning on doing was replacing 2 railguns with 2 ion cannons because i know i am facing cadians chaos witch are foot slogging.

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Re: tailoring the list to your opponent

Post  System Commander on Wed Mar 24, 2010 12:10 am

Well, this is a good example of where you would be tailoring your list to gain an advantage. There really arent that many out there, but if you know your opponent has a weakness (In this case vehicles), your stacking your list to take advantage ofthat.

If hes got all foot sloggers and no vehicles, then the ion cannons would be more beneficial. I dont think anyone could argue that.

However, you have to think of it in this light. If he has no vehicles at all.. he is going to be at disadvantage against your army form the get go. The bulk of your guns are high str. and good range.. your going to be shooting up those marines all day not caring about cover saves.

I would encourage you to bring the railguns to make the game more interesting for you and your opponent. Its already gonna be a rough game if he has to run across the field on foot.

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Re: tailoring the list to your opponent

Post  System Commander on Wed Mar 24, 2010 12:15 am

As a side note.. I think its fair to say wečve gone through the list tailoring example significantly.

It only really comes into effect when you know more or less, exactly what type of army your opponent is going to have, and you stack your strengths accordingly to take advantage of any weaknesses they might have. I would highly discourage it.. even against good friends.

However, in a more positive light, it wouldprobably be the quickest way for that person to realize he better balance out that army fast.

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Re: tailoring the list to your opponent

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