Rules Clarification: Tank Hunters

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Rules Clarification: Tank Hunters

Post  Justin Buhler on Sun Apr 20, 2008 7:25 pm

So this came up at the Apocaylpse game yesterday and I did some reading up on it, and am wondering what the general consensus is on this.

So Railguns are Strength 10, and so Cam was saying the Railguns don't benefit from the Tank Hunter ability since they're already Strength 10 and a weapon can't have its Strength increased above 10. I let it go since the +1 isn't all that necessary when dealing with Railguns anyways, but I did look up Tank Hunters afterwards, and all it says is it adds +1 to the armor penetration roll, not that it in any way increases the weapon's Strength. So my question is, do Railguns (or other S 10 weapons for that matter) benefit from Tank Hunter or not?

Further addendum after further contemplation: For additional argument, for weapons without a S characteristic (such as Wraithcannons) the unit still gains the +1 to its armor penetration roll for having Tank Hunters, so again I don't think the weapons Strength plays a roll in the Tank Hunters use.

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moved

Post  Administratum on Tue Apr 22, 2008 2:41 am

I moved this post to the appropriate board.
Wasted 20 minutes trying to figure out an answer for this, and yea you are technically right, you can get +1 on your ap rolls even though you are strength 10. However this is obviously not in the spirit of the game as it sates in the BBB that the maximum stat you can ever have is 10. In my opinion its just a loophole that was created in apocalypse, and will most likely never cause issues in standard games.

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Re: Rules Clarification: Tank Hunters

Post  System Commander on Tue Apr 22, 2008 9:27 am

I guess the first thing that jumped to my mind is why would you think weapons without Str get a +1 the the Ap roll?

You roll to hit, once you hit you roll for armor penetration. If your str. 8 and have a missile launcher, you count as str 9 when rolling for penetration. You then roll the D6 to see what armor you hit. Weapons that don't have a str., don't roll for armor penetration unless I'm not understanding the original statement. Wraithcannons roll to hit against the vehicle, for each hit they score, they get to roll on a different chart to see if they penetrate or glance, am I right? Tank Hunters has no effect on this.

As for tank hunters on railguns, that's a weird one. I'd have to do some more checking in the main book for clarification. The intention was to never have a weapon with a str. greater than 10, and tank hunters sort of bypasses that rule through a loophole. Was it an accident, I'm not sure. I guess we'd have to see where the tank hunters originates from, sinc emost armies who have historically been able to take tnak hunters never had access to str. 10 weapons. Is that a special ability your units get Justin or does it come from a strategem? I can't remember it arising form a strategem though.

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Re: Rules Clarification: Tank Hunters

Post  Justin Buhler on Tue Apr 22, 2008 4:43 pm

I can't remember exactly what the Assets name is but it's the Strategic Command one that grants every model within 12" Fearless, Counter-Attack, Acute Senses and Tank Hunters.

What I meant by the Wraithcannon example is that when making their AP check against vehicles they don't use a S stat, instead on a 3 or 4 the hit glances and on a 5 or 6 the hit Pens, so if they have the Tank Hunters abilities I don't see why they wouldn't get +1 to their roll as well. So 2-3 would be a glance and 4+ would be a Pen.

Also, like I noted previously, Tank Hunters doesn't say it increases the Strength of the weapon by 1, it merely adds +1 to the ap roll. It's not the weapon getting stronger, it's the weilders' knowledge of weak points in the enemy's armor. So I'm not sure how that impedes the spirit of the rules.

As for the loophole argument, it's true, this isn't something that's likely to occur outside of Apocalypse, but it's still a valid question. And it's not a Tau-only question either, the same questions apply to Demolisher cannons, linked up Prism Cannons, Ork Zzap and Shockattack gunz, etc.

I mean I'm a debator, so I like to argue, and I'm not trying to piss anyone off or anything like that, I'm just pleading my case and asking the questions I feel require some evaluation. At least this one seems a touch less straightforward than the Smart Missiles clarification.

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Re: Rules Clarification: Tank Hunters

Post  Mr Anderson on Tue Apr 22, 2008 5:23 pm

What I think Justin is getting at here is that TankHunters doesn't modify the actual strength of the weapon itself but how and where it's aimed at the target.

For example, I could kill you with this spoon...

If I knew the exact place to stick it for maximum damage.

The same thing applies to the Tankhunters bonus, it adds plus one to the D6 to see what the strength of the weapon does. Increasing skill over increasing raw power.
So I would have to say that it would have an effect on the railguns. Though, I'm not sure on the Wrathcannons.

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Re: Rules Clarification: Tank Hunters

Post  Administratum on Tue Apr 22, 2008 5:47 pm

That spoon looks like a multi-tool. You could eat your poridge, then fix the dishwasher.

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Wellll...

Post  System Commander on Tue Apr 22, 2008 7:10 pm

... there were alot of debates regarding Tank hunters especially when Chaos vets could take the ability. ANd, when you cold take a lascannon in a 5 man squad with tank hunters, it was also dirt cheap! I have to say though, in this case I would probably have to side with tank hunters working with Str 10 weapons, only because there is nothing against it working in the main rulebook. Like Justin said, it doesn't increase the weapon Str. above 10, just adds +1 to the penetration roll.

All in all, it's only 1 better than the lascannon that could be used under the old chaos codex. However since this is something I'm sure is being debated on other forums, Ill do a search.

As for wraithcannons and other weapons that dont use armor penetration, you definitely would NOT get the +1. Wraithcannons don't get to roll armor penetration. Same for necron guass weapons. On a 6 they get a glance, but there is no penetration roll.

Time to search Warseer!

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Semantics!

Post  Nordius Rex on Wed Apr 23, 2008 1:29 am

It all comes down to the nitpicky wording of the rule. If the Tankhunter ability said that it increased the str of the weapon by +1 then it would be redundant b/c the railgun is as strong as any 40k weapon can be, but because it says it adds to the actual AP roll (and there is no rule limiting the max of a roll) I think it would work fine.

Also because of the wording, the roll that a wraithcannon (or D-cannon, or haywire grenade) makes after it hits a vehicle is not an "armour penetration" roll, its a separate roll that because of its rules supersedes the usual AP roll and therefore, would not benefit from the +1 for Tankhunter.

So this is just alot of words to say, yup, I agree with the System Commander Smile

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Re: Rules Clarification: Tank Hunters

Post  Lord_Commander_Stash on Wed May 07, 2008 2:04 am

LexMechanic wrote:I moved this post to the appropriate board.
Wasted 20 minutes trying to figure out an answer for this, and yea you are technically right, you can get +1 on your ap rolls even though you are strength 10. However this is obviously not in the spirit of the game as it sates in the BBB that the maximum stat you can ever have is 10. In my opinion its just a loophole that was created in apocalypse, and will most likely never cause issues in standard games.

Its not a loop hole, it represents the user of the weapon having extra skill.

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Re: Rules Clarification: Tank Hunters

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