Cover Everywhere??

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Cover Everywhere??

Post  Guest on Mon Mar 22, 2010 3:45 pm

Firstly I will state that I am new to here, and do not know on what basis that it was decided that every peice of terrain in the store was area ruins. However I would like to ask why this is. I've played 40k for many years and in many stores across Quebec and Ontario; nowhere else have I seen a model gain a cover save just because it was standing on a "ruin".

The result is that every game Ive played at the shop has had models standing out in the open, with no possible blocking of LoS between them and other targets, but they still receive a cover save. Anywhere else that Ive played the only time a not obscured model was allowed a cover save is when an ability said so, like conceal or turbo-boost, or when they were part of a unit which was obscured, like the autocannon team of a guard unit being out in the open while more than 50% of the rest of the unit was hidden behind a wall.

The ruling you have gives every model in the game a 4+ invulnerable save without penalty. The model does not need to hide, and potentially lose the ability to fire on some targets. They also do not have to stand behind cover at all, as several "ruins" are nothing but hills with a random piece of something on it. The 40k rules do describe areas of terrain which are simply difficult to cross, however they do not grant cover.

And so I ask if maybe people would like to run league games according to the rules of cover saves are only for models that are actually taking cover within a terrain peice, or if any guardsman and orc who simply touches a terrain base should be granted a 4+ invulnerable?

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Re: Cover Everywhere??

Post  System Commander on Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:24 pm

Well, you're supposed to agree on terrain effects with your opponent at the beginning of the game. That being said, with the terrain rules from 5th being true LOS. the only concerns you should have are defining which pieces of terrain are considered area terrain, and which are impassable.

Are terrain is typically anything that has a base, and a defined "area". If it's a flat piece of terrain with a few sprigs of grass or something, it will still usually count as a piece of cover... so difficult terrain for someone moving through, a 4+ if your in it, and a 4+ if your shooting through it.

Im previous editions, you'd be able to label the terrain pieces is varying levels, so a grass field would be a 5+ save, and buildings would be 4+.. so now your just stuck with everything being a 4+.

So, typcially, a model will receive a 4+ cover for standing in a piece of area terrain.. proving he is still following the rules.. and at least 50% of the unit is in cover relative to the shooter.

Your were using true line of site for all shooting, if they were standing in trees or not?

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Re: Cover Everywhere??

Post  Guest on Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:37 pm

Yes, we would check, if the guys are behind teh treeline, they get cover.

Same for ruins, if guys are standing in the middle of it, there was no cover, there had to be some part of the ruins actually covering the model, like a chest-high wall, Or they can be shooting out windows.

Sitting on the open face of a ruin gave you no cover.

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Re: Cover Everywhere??

Post  Guest on Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:45 pm

Here's my take on it...

The list of things that grant 4+ cover is massive in the rulebook, it's pretty much everything besides of bush, grass, and razor wire/chain link fences. For simplicities sake, I say everything is 4+ and all area terrain is difficult - not necessarily because it is ruins, but because it's a total pain in the ass to remember which is which and what is what. It also balances the fact that it provides cover with making it more difficult to move through.

Anything scenery that is not the tablecloth or tabletop is area terrain, even those really flat looking ones like the trees with grass or the flat rocky pieces with tank traps/barrels on them (those pieces came up in our first game together, Adam)

nowhere else have I seen a model gain a cover save just because it was standing on a "ruin".
[next post]
Sitting on the open face of a ruin gave you no cover.
Unless agreed upon an exception with your opponent, this is wrong. Page 22, "Target models whose bases are at least partially inside area terrain are in cover, regardless of where the shot is coming from". So if you're in some area terrain but not actually obscured via LOS, you still receive a cover save.


BTW it's not an invulnerable save, it's a cover save. The two are very different Smile If my Librarian made people re-roll cover saves... holy !@#$ that's pretty OP.

EDIT: As for the poll, I vote for what the rulebook says because... it's the rulebook. I think we do need to be clearer on how we define terrain, however.


Last edited by HolyCause on Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:48 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Cover Everywhere??

Post  System Commander on Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:47 pm

It does warrant discussion though. We have typcially went with a pretty relaxed ruling on cover saves and terrain... especially with alot of pieces that we had used in the previous edition.

For example, we have a set of 1/2 hills. Its a bit rocky looking, and I know Ive played them all sorts of ways.. either just functioning as a hill.. no cover.. or as a piece of area terrain meaning all walking is difficult terrain, but you also get a cover save.

I think the main problem we have with alot of terrain pieces at the den is that they aren't the most mini friendly. Everything looks really good, but some pieces are a bit rounded, have a lot of little sprigs and stuff on them, or have steps that are just a tad bit to short for people to stand on.

As a result, we've typically played most area pieces as just that, a piece of area terrain meaning everything in it will get cover, even if they are all standing on the tops of rocks or a wall or something.

So, before a game starts, I think you should determine a) what is/isn't area terrain b) whats impassable. Any other piece of terrain on the table (rubble pieces, barricades, scraps and pieces) will serve the usual purpose of blocking site and giving cover for models being shot through it, but typcially is to small to be a piece or area terrain.

How do the rest of people feel about how terrain is used?

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Re: Cover Everywhere??

Post  Guest on Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:52 pm

i usually play this way no one has questioned me(am i that intimidating). bunkers we only have 2 and no intact buildings, grant 3 plus cover everything else is 4 pluse exept if it is so small you cant fit in it then if you are standing behind it you get 5 plus.

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Re: Cover Everywhere??

Post  Guest on Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:55 pm

ok dont mean to thread jack here but. there is a lot of terrain we r lacking namly roads incact/forifyed buildings and water. if i were 2 puchase some roads for use at the den could i? also i think if everyone put in 5$ we could buy/paint some new terrain, i mean that gw crap is over priced and crummy mostly. but we could get some really awsome fortifyed buildings from there line of terrain.

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Re: Cover Everywhere??

Post  Paz on Mon Mar 22, 2010 7:07 pm

Adam= If it upsets you, bring it up before the game. The rulebook does say even touching area terrain gives you cover, and its how I've played it here since 5th. Prince Albert plays it the same way as well. I believe the RB says that the template surrounding a terrain piece is area terrain. I think this with TLoS works better. In 4th, a mutha trucker with a crisis suit could jump out from behind area terrain, blast you, then jump back. You could see him fine, but because he was behind 6 inches of terrain, he was INVISIBLE. I see 5th as waaaay better than that.

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Re: Cover Everywhere??

Post  Guest on Mon Mar 22, 2010 8:01 pm

The reasoning behind it (At least as far as makes sense to me) is twofold:
A) The 'area' terrain isn't JUST what you see. That 'open field' actually has grass on it, it's just that were the 3'tall grass modelled onto it, it would be very difficult to get any models to stand there.
In the ruins, there's bits of rubble and broken stone all over the place.
B) the models in the cover aren't assumed to be just standing their patiently waiting to be shot, they're actively taking cover behind anything available.

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Re: Cover Everywhere??

Post  Guest on Mon Mar 22, 2010 8:10 pm

bensutherland333 wrote: if i were 2 puchase some roads for use at the den could i?
Yeah, just bring it up with Darren. "could I buy these two road rolls for the back?"

Also I disagree on the plastic buildings being crap. They're a bit overpriced (even for GW stuff) but they are very good for building terrain when combined with other techniques. Buildings made solely out of plastic mounted on a textured mdf base look boring, but when combined with things they look awesome.

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Re: Cover Everywhere??

Post  kerr_matt80 on Mon Mar 22, 2010 8:27 pm

Jemal wrote:B) the models in the cover aren't assumed to be just standing their patiently waiting to be shot, they're actively taking cover behind anything available.

if memory serves this is actually used as an example to justify the touching area terrain thingy in the rulebook. And I also believe they say the cover save also represents the models waiting for the "perfect shot" but never getting it. Of course im too lazy to look in the book and quote from pages or anything.

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Re: Cover Everywhere??

Post  Guest on Mon Mar 22, 2010 8:33 pm

The terrain peices that I find the most questionable are the muti-level building ruins ones. They add a lot of power onto any unit that has infiltrate or stealth, and no penalties. The entire unit keeps clear LoS to the table, gets their cover save, and a free 3" of difficult to assault terrain per floor.

I guess that if you consider the terrain not being WYSIWUG ergo the assumption of more rubble or tall grass, they make sense as area terrain, but I have never seen another store include so much multi-level building type peices without ruling them using city-fight rules. I guess I just find it weird.

I think it would be good to invest in some smaller terrain peices, I would definitly be in for a terrain-building day or something. All the Den seems to have is ruins and a little bit of jungle.

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Re: Cover Everywhere??

Post  Guest on Mon Mar 22, 2010 8:56 pm

I brought up the issue with terrain a few weeks ago. Basically there is not a problem with donating anything to the den or bringing your own terrain to use for your games. I am still working toward a day where we can reapir what we have and build some new stuff. If there is this much intrest I will speed up the process a bit and let everyone know what dates we will set up a terrain day for. Basically we take a day to build what we want, I'll prime it with the spraygun then everyone paints for a day. I still have to talk to darren about some details. In the meantime if anyone wishes to discuss what types of terrain we should be working toward, materials anyone has, what days would be best... feel free to post it on the terrain upgrage page under general discussion.

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Re: Cover Everywhere??

Post  Veyure on Mon Mar 22, 2010 9:06 pm

there is a bunch of hills and craters in the boxes surrounding the room. Feel free to open them up and use it. The stuff on the shelves is mostly ruins and such. There is even river pieces under that table with the trophy in the back. Look around and you'll find it all...

As for the cover stuff with multi levels, there is a league house rule that forbids units from setting up above the first floor of any building for that particular reason that it is too difficult for any of the assaulting armies to have a chance of ever getting them.

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Re: Cover Everywhere??

Post  Terran on Mon Mar 22, 2010 9:35 pm

Just to insert my own two cents, I find the league blanket rules fine.

They remove confusion of 'well, is this a 5+ cover, or a 3+, or a 4+?' The league rule of setting up no more than 3" (1 level) up keeps people from starting the game with 2 10man scout/pathfinder/w.e squads on tier 4 of terrain.

The blanket 'This is 4+' is just a quickening feature of our games. I like it.

And (to beat a dead horse) cover is not invulnerable. Many things ignore cover in 5th, like Template weapons of all flavors. Not to mention most codex's (if not all) have some form of special weapon/ability on something that ignores cover (like Sternguard special ammo). One can count on 1 hand the number of things in the GAME that ignore Inv. saves (Necron Warscythes, some Grey Knight gear, and...).

In summary: Ain't broke, don't fix it.

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Cover

Post  Commander James of the Ul on Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:32 pm

Some times i think the cover save is over used. Some people might argue troops sometimes get a cover save on open ground saying that grass is a cover save... hmm ah no. yes grass will conceal you until you shot your gun and enemy troops will shot at you. Same with small gopher hill or even bigger round balls. Cause when you stick your head out to shot your gun, you get SHOT... People who think grass or small hills are a cover save should go paint balling. GRASS IS NOT COVER and when you get shot on the fore head it HURTS ALOT...

Buildings and ruins are a good 4 plus save. Rock unlike grass will shot a bullet. But even a 2 inch board will not stop a 30 od 6 shell (bolter maybe). How ever a 22 shell will be stopped by a 2 inch wide board (lasgun maybe) just to compare. Of course it would also depend on the type of building material for the cover save. But that in my mind is already addressed bunker save vs ruin save. BUT grass and small hills on open ground is not a cover save. Yes grass and small hill will conceal you but once you pop your head up to fire your gun your a target period... So maybe a 5 plus cover save on open ground but if the troop fired on the past turn no cover save. In my opinion

I also have building that I might donate But the bigger issue is the battle boards. I would be more then happy to give an easy 50 to help get a battle board or boards


Last edited by Commander James of the Ul on Tue Mar 23, 2010 12:02 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Cover Everywhere??

Post  System Commander on Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:33 pm

Just a clarification to the starting in buildings rule. It only effects units that cannot infiltrate. If you can infiltrate, then you can set up anywhere on the board you want, at any level.

However, if it's standard deployment and you you have one of the 12" tall buildings, then yeah, you have to start on the first and worl your way up. Its jsut something I felt we had to bring in becasue of our unique terrain pieces.

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Re: Cover Everywhere??

Post  Terran on Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:41 pm

The problem with complicating something like the cover system is that it slows the game down. There is already enough stalling with things like Codex clarifications, rules clarifications, etc. If you add in a dimension of:

If x = Y, then Cover is P. However, if X =/= Y, the Cover is P-2, if the condition of X is J...

Kinda slows the game down. In my mind, cover just encourages playing a balanced list. Include some flamers on elements of your army that move forward. Usually units that rely on cover have a crappy armor save (i.e., Eldar Rangers/Pathfinders are 5+). Negate it with flamers (or other abilities/ammunition/etc. that ignores cover saves). Try assaulting the unit with troops w/ grenades. Usually things designed to sit in cover and shoot do so for a reason (i.e., piss-poor melee ability). There are multiple solutions to the problem, one just has to explore options to beating them with the models you have available. In my mind, strong cover saves are the penalty you play for playing a 1 dimensional list. Want to sit back, castle up, and shoot? Well, prepare to pay for that luxury by having units have a 4+ save vs. most of your high STR, Low AP weapons.

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Re: Cover Everywhere??

Post  Guest on Tue Mar 23, 2010 12:35 am

Commander James of the Ul wrote:Some times i think the cover save is over used. Some people might argue troops sometimes get a cover save on open ground saying that grass is a cover save... hmm ah no. yes grass will conceal you until you shot your gun and enemy troops will shot at you. Same with small gopher hill or even bigger round balls. Cause when you stick your head out to shot your gun, you get SHOT... People who think grass or small hills are a cover save should go paint balling. GRASS IS NOT COVER and when you get shot on the fore head it HURTS ALOT...

Buildings and ruins are a good 4 plus save. Rock unlike grass will shot a bullet. But even a 2 inch board will not stop a 30 od 6 shell (bolter maybe). How ever a 22 shell will be stopped by a 2 inch wide board (lasgun maybe) just to compare. Of course it would also depend on the type of building material for the cover save. But that in my mind is already addressed bunker save vs ruin save. BUT grass and small hills on open ground is not a cover save. Yes grass and small hill will conceal you but once you pop your head up to fire your gun your a target period... So maybe a 5 plus cover save on open ground but if the troop fired on the past turn no cover save. In my opinion

I also have building that I might donate But the bigger issue is the battle boards. I would be more then happy to give an easy 50 to help get a battle board or boards

I'd suggest not bringing up real world physics in gaming, it's rarely a good idea. For example with this game, how can you explain how a chain link fence provides a 1 in 6 chance of stopping a Lascannon? (6+ cover)

Also cover isn't just stopping the shot itself, sometimes its just obscuring (hence the word obscured) the target so you can't get a good shot in the first place.

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Re: Cover Everywhere??

Post  System Commander on Tue Mar 23, 2010 12:46 am

No.. your explanation is also wrong.

The best explantion.. its alien grass... its tougher than earth grass.. because its from aliens.

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Re: Cover Everywhere??

Post  Veyure on Tue Mar 23, 2010 8:42 am

System Commander wrote:No.. your explanation is also wrong.

The best explantion.. its alien grass... its tougher than earth grass.. because its from aliens.
You can't argue against this.

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Cover save

Post  Commander James of the Ul on Tue Mar 23, 2010 9:04 am

Ya Jim a chain linked fence has no hope in hell of stopping a Lascannon shot. But If you think your troops are going to get a 4 plus cover save when your on open ground. It will be debated, Yes I know of the Hawker guy I think that is a different case. But seriously. I should take you out paint balling. You will very quickly learn that grass (alien lol) will not work. And it will be a painful learn lol. But yes it will obscure a person. until you pop your head up to make a shot, and if you don't take out the target. There will probably at lest one other enemy combatant targeting that area waiting for the poor bastard to stick his head up. Maybe we should all go paint balling to better understand cover saves. You will be very surprised just how many head shot are landed when you hide in cover. Should those head shot get a cover save hhhhmmmm interesting
To finish my point I can't wait until there is a holo graphic model of battle that has a perfect computer model of cover saves. lol maybe in my life time lol

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Re: Cover Everywhere??

Post  Guest on Tue Mar 23, 2010 9:15 am

Veyure wrote:
You can't argue against this.
QFT


But I prefer how the older editions did cover simply in concept (it's nowhere near as simple)... it modified your To Hit, so these silly discussions on "how the hell does my power armour offer less protection than a shrub?" didn't have to carry on Laughing

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Re: Cover Everywhere??

Post  Veyure on Tue Mar 23, 2010 10:04 am

But James, the cover save as Alex pointed out, is not necessarily representing the cover actually stopping the shot, just making the shot more difficult. It used to modify the to hit roll, but as GW keeps doing, they removed the math involed with the game to speed it up.
So the grass you are hiding in giving you a cover save is meant to represent the fact that there is a chance (albeit a small one as grass only gives a 6+) that the firer missed the chance for that nice head kill shot.

I uderstand the standing in the open thing though. I hope people arent standing on a simple hill and demanding cover as unless you both agree that the grass is 6 feet tall im sure it would be tough to even hide from view.

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Re: Cover Everywhere??

Post  System Commander on Tue Mar 23, 2010 10:25 am

For a hill, it should typically not be considered difficult terrain, or provide cover unless your specifically agree ahead of time it's a piece of are aterrain.

In the open though.. ? I wouldnt buy that argument.. unless your shooting through another unit, or there's a piece of interposing terrain between the shooter and target.

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Re: Cover Everywhere??

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