New Proposal - League Format

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New Proposal - League Format

Post  System Commander on Tue Mar 09, 2010 11:16 am

Instead of splitting the league into two different entities, Im wondering if we can splits things somewhat but still keep it all under one "league".

Im thinking we could have one Hunters league, but split it into two factions, the Tuff League and the Fluff League (we can adjust the names). I'd like to see both leagues ran in a smilar fashion, as in eahc league will thave the same points values for win/ties/losses and the same bonuses for painting, etc. Each league will keep track of the points, and will have the playoffs in the same way as before (top 8, single eliminiation). If we wanted, after both leagues were complete, we could have the two champions from each league play each other for a bonus prize?

There would also always be the option for Tuff to play Fluff at any time, and you would still earn league points regularly.

So, if thats the case, why even have the split? Well, if we did it this way, we can add the rule that in the Tuff league, you can always show up with whatever list you want. Becasue its the Tuff league, you'll never take any flak for the army you bring out, we'll start a Tuff thread on the forum and you can dicuss all the power aspects of the new units. etc.

Whats most important here though is that while you sign up for one or the other league at the beginning, you can still play a member of either at any time. If you agree to play a Tuff and your a Fluff, you'll have to make sure you know what kind of list your going to face, or maybe you want to whip out something strong to try yourself. But for the most part, lists, rules discussion, etc. can all be done in the Tuff forum AND you wont have to take any more guff from us stick up the ass types.

I dont know, is this a good idea at all? I want you guys to be able to discuss what YOU wnat to dicuss and not take the heat other members give you (I'm one of those).

So, discussion commence. What do people think about it? Good idea, bad idea? I actually really like the idea of having the Tuff and Fluff champs play each other in a final match.

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Re: New Proposal - League Format

Post  Guest on Tue Mar 09, 2010 11:37 am

So, just so I understand, players would be split into 2 Ladders (Tough and Fluff)

players who enjoy power lists go on ladder A, people who enjoy fluffier lists go ladder B

anyone can play anyone, but each ladder has its top 8 enter finals.

That does sound interesting, I would prefer to play fluff lists rather than claim that my blood red Daemon Prince really serves Slanesh so he can use Lash

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Re: New Proposal - League Format

Post  System Commander on Tue Mar 09, 2010 11:41 am

Yup, pretty much. What I'm really concerned about though is making sure that Tuff members have aplace to discuss lists, tactics, and rules.

Even if we dont go the Tuff/Fluff route, I'll probably start up a category where we can discuss these things with impunity.

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Re: New Proposal - League Format

Post  HiveMindRuik on Tue Mar 09, 2010 12:10 pm

hmm i say that splitting the league like that would be nice for one thing it would be nice to be able to play a themed army that doesnt have to be uber competitive where as i could finally get my gaunts painted and use a super massive infantry based army Very Happy

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Re: New Proposal - League Format

Post  Paz on Tue Mar 09, 2010 12:12 pm

that's brilliant Robyn! I'm all for it.

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Re: New Proposal - League Format

Post  Guest on Tue Mar 09, 2010 1:07 pm

I like it but seeing as how i cant power game very well i will play in the fluff league more, but i will still play in the tuff league every now and then.

You can really tell the league is growing a lot. do we get any swag from gw for doing this?

Also how would tournaments work?

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Re: New Proposal - League Format

Post  kerr_matt80 on Tue Mar 09, 2010 1:14 pm

i'm for this idea as well. the champions from each league playing each other at the end gets a thumbs up from this guy too

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Re: New Proposal - League Format

Post  System Commander on Tue Mar 09, 2010 1:17 pm

Ha.. GW.. we never received anything from GW.

All the prizes we give out are a result of league fees, plus a bit extra the den kicks in for taking cash, and giving out store credit.

It would definitely not change the format of any tournie, the split Tff/Fluff leagues would only be for game play in the league.

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Re: New Proposal - League Format

Post  Guest on Tue Mar 09, 2010 2:28 pm

Alright, as I posted in the general chat, I'm all for a split to see if it helps everyone have their fun. I hope you don't mind my suggestions here:

1. Run by someone other than yourself - I don't mean this in a bad way. I mean the book keeping. Just about everyone I know could handle the bookkeeping for the league, and as you've mentioned, you are going to be getting progressively more busy. Make it someone like Jim and you've got a person who is obsessive with numbers keeping track of matches and who can be there every league night to help with rules disputes.

Frankly I think the league has more players than one person can safely deal with and still keep their sanity.

2. Forum Moderation - If the problems on the forums continue, and I personally think that this is where most of the complaints come from, I might suggest adding an extra person as a mod and maybe cracking the whip a little more often. Once again, I'm not privy to PM's so I can't tell, but I think it would help to have an extra someone willing to remind people what is and is not acceptable. If I were going to recommend someone? Either Jim or Paz. Both are on reasonably requently, and both have enough tact in most of their posts to be able to spot when someone's gone a tad too far.

3. Tuff v. Fluff - Like the titles, that said my one concern is mentioning that while the 'tuff' league is an open list have your fun style league, it is still meant for fun. I don't think the experement will go very well if you have a 'fun' league and an 'asshat' league (Forgive the language.)

4. Style - Personally I would like to see each league done in a somewhat different style, IE. Escalation for one, a campaign type for another. That said, I agree that the first round should be as basic as "Everyone uses the same scoring."

5. Friday! - Um... Try running the alternate on friday? I think this one is self explanitory. The league under the best of circumstances is utterly crammed on Wednsdays most week, so the extra space is good for everyone.

Those are pretty much my only recommendations. Personally I'll probably be attending the Tuff league most often, because fridays are better for me with my work schedule, and I really do hope there is overlap between the two.

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Re: New Proposal - League Format

Post  System Commander on Tue Mar 09, 2010 2:34 pm

Jim has offered to keep tallies in the past, and Ill definitely be recruiting him this time around no matter what we do.

Like you said, fun is the biggest requirement. My main reason for setting it up like this is so the people who want to play the power lists can stop being hassled.

All your ideas are looking good so far. I could bring on some mods, but look at me. Im on here every 15 minutes anyway and read everything.

I dont think is happening Thu. nights either at the den,unless Warmachine started up again. We had ran an Thu. nights for years and just switched to Wed. last Sept. We could probably run league nights on Wed. and Thu.

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Re: New Proposal - League Format

Post  Guest on Tue Mar 09, 2010 2:49 pm

Word yo! Twisted Evil

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Re: New Proposal - League Format

Post  System Commander on Tue Mar 09, 2010 2:54 pm

I was replying to Alex's post, but it dissapeared on me, but Ill respond a bit here anyway to the power list aspect of things.

The only thing I was going to mention was in regard to the power lists. I know they are out there, I read about them, and when I first started, I was glamoured by them as well.

Im getting old though.. Im getting a bit crotchety... and I really just want to have some fun with my plastic guys. I dont want to bring a list I dont think is fun for me to play with.. which means bringing some bikes, maybe a Khorne Chaos Lord with daemon weapon (cringe), a few terminators outfitted oddly.. and not worry about being wiped out by the second turn.

I know there are a few other guys that also feel that way. I'm going to be selfish for a moment though and try to make sure the league is run how I want to play in it. If the majority was the other way, I'd probably just fold up shop and let someone else run it, but as long as there are at least a few other people out there who want to focus on the hobby, we'll keep er going.

I have nothing against the power lists at all, and they are part of the game. I really just dont want to have to face them all the time. Once in awhile I have no problem if someone throws down the gauntlet to me and asks me to make the craziest list I can, thats fine. But for the casual gamer, I just want to play with my pretty looking skulls collecting, bloodletting, savage daemons.


I

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Re: New Proposal - League Format

Post  gluvzer on Tue Mar 09, 2010 2:59 pm

System Commander wrote:
I dont think is happening Thu. nights either at the den,unless Warmachine started up again. We had ran an Thu. nights for years and just switched to Wed. last Sept. We could probably run league nights on Wed. and Thu.

Thurs = Mordheim nite. As of now using 2 tables at the back, who knows later.

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Re: New Proposal - League Format

Post  Veyure on Tue Mar 09, 2010 4:20 pm

so if everyone can play everyone, what's the point of making 2 different leagues. What you propose her Robyn is that when you make a matchup then just say if your playing a nicely themed army or a killer list. so why not just leave it as one league and have people make the list arrangement when setting up there games. that way there is less beurocratic work on the organizers part. if you still wanted someone else to work the number magic then pass that part of the work on to someone else.

I am interested more in the hoby part of the game too, your not alone there.

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Re: New Proposal - League Format

Post  Guest on Tue Mar 09, 2010 4:48 pm

the den is open til midnight on friday so everyone could have more games

edit i also think that to get rid of the divide in our gaming community we need to get the vets to play the newer players, i am not saying that none of the vets play the new players but there are some who have been here for 4-8 mponths and some vets have never offered to play against them
and vice versa

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Re: New Proposal - League Format

Post  Guest on Tue Mar 09, 2010 4:55 pm

Allright, several points in no apparent order :

We could try Thursday, keeping in mind that the Mordheim players have precedence. If the league's getting 'halved', then there'll likely be less players, so it shouldn't be too much of a problem. If it becomes too crowded, we'll have to find another night as they allready have 'dibs.'
Alternately, I believe Friday was offered as an Option. I'll ask at the den today about that.

I would be more than happy to help with the logistics/scorekeeping/etc. As Adam pointed out, I can be obsessive with numbers, and I have free time.
I'd also be willing to help moderate (Either this forum if you decide you need it, or another if there's a decision made that we should split). I've moderated forums and PBEMs in the past, and was even offered a mod position at ENWorld several years ago.


I have one concern with the 'powergamer league' or 'tuff league' that I've allready expressed to Adam when we were discussing running it last night, but I feel it also needs to be brought up here.
Not everybody wants to think of themselves as a 'power gamer'. While there are a lot of people willing to say "Yeah I wanna play competetive", there's also a lot of people who I enjoy playing with that would migrate more towards the 'fluff' league simply b/c of sterotyping. They either don't think their lists are powerful enough to compete with the 'tuff guys', or they would just rather not be implicated as a power-gamer.

With that in mind, I'd just like to say that were I in charge of/helping with the 'secondary' league, I would not want to have it be the 'powergaming' league, just another league where rules and gameplay are important, but fluff isn't completely forgotten.
I don't want a "WIN" league and a "FUN" league.


EDIT : ALso...

edit i also think that to get rid of the divide in our gaming community we need to get the vets to play the newer players, i am not saying that none of the vets play the new players but there are some who have been here for 4-8 mponths and some vets have never offered to play against them
and vice versa
Again, Ben shows the wisdom of a man far his elder.


Last edited by Jemal on Tue Mar 09, 2010 4:58 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: New Proposal - League Format

Post  Guest on Tue Mar 09, 2010 4:58 pm

i think a way to solve this is coperation the tuff players show the fluff players some tactics and the fluff players show the tuff players painting/modelling advice and give them a 40k history lesson.

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Re: New Proposal - League Format

Post  smackman on Tue Mar 09, 2010 5:24 pm

I just have one thing to say.... 'Ard Boyz League! Being a power gamer doesn't mean you're not interested in fluff and painting, I'm currently painting alot alot of orks right now, but I already have my fluffy chaos painted and my Necrons painted with a custom lord + backstory reflected in the modeling.

I would like to see a second league because, I AM A POWER GAMER! I want to face some of the cheasiest most beardy lists ever dreamt up. My concern is that it's mentally exhausting to play that all the time and I'm not sure that I could play two leagues of it in a row (I won the league with a beardy orks list, then came back and let everyone boot stomp my necrons, I'm bipolar like that I guess) I don't want to see a big rift in the community but I do want a place for people to play power lists because sometimes tabling someone in 3 turns gives you what's missing from writing space marine fan fiction. (Please god don't let me stoop to that level)

I'm not sure what the big deal is about getting labeled as a power gamer and why everyone's so hesitant to say that they want to play in this second league. Seriously, we're all nerds, we're all looked down upon by people who don't play nerdy games at the back of the den. (Except musicians, because I mean seriously... lame Very Happy)

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Re: New Proposal - League Format

Post  gluvzer on Tue Mar 09, 2010 6:00 pm

Jemal wrote:We could try Thursday, keeping in mind that the Mordheim players have precedence. If the league's getting 'halved', then there'll likely be less players, so it shouldn't be too much of a problem. If it becomes too crowded, we'll have to find another night as they allready have 'dibs.'
Alternately, I believe Friday was offered as an Option. I'll ask at the den today about that.

Just an FYI. The back two tables in the South West corner are for sure reserved for Mordheim Thurs nights. However we don't usually show up untill after six. And if people are on them I have no issue with asking them to end game and move stuff. I'm not budging on this because we moved to Thurs. nights BECAUSE of space issues and aren't doing it again. I'm disapointed Robyn suggested it because I can already see a crowding and space problem again..... But who knows?

And we do require A LOT of terrain for our games, mainly the ruined historical stuff, so if you do start Thurs., I would ask that that gets left for us. the Urban and Sci-fi, we don't touch.

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Re: New Proposal - League Format

Post  System Commander on Tue Mar 09, 2010 6:54 pm

*shrugs* I didnt realize you guys were playing Mordheim Thu. nights, so completely skip my Thu. suggestion. I was just trying to offer up ideas.

I think maybe what I have to do is step back from running the league completely. I'll stay around and moderate the site in of general discussion, painting, etc. but maybe find someone who can run the game playing portion of the league, moderate the game forum, be a rules arbitrator, etc... I'm just tired..

So, volunteers? Ill try to get someone who has the most experience and can be nice. Once my time frees up, I'll even join.

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Re: New Proposal - League Format

Post  Paz on Tue Mar 09, 2010 7:03 pm

I'd be willing to help all I can. I'm a fairly busy guy, now back in the workforce, but for fluff I will endure. I think the easiest way to go here is a forum and night for fluff, and an 'ardboyz night and forum. Problem solved. you can set up games and chat on either, but if you are on:

The hunter forums= no power lists, no math-hammer, lotsa casual hobby stuff.

Ardboyz forums= no whining about overpowered lists, so reversal in mod-ship.

Doesn't mean you can't participate in either, but allows mods to be harsh on infringements of the rules.

I vote Jim and/or Adam to run the ardboyz, and I will volunteer myself, and Robyn if he still feels up for it, to run Hunters. 2 nights, more 40k! EVERYONE WINS GOSHDAMMUT.

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Re: New Proposal - League Format

Post  Guest on Tue Mar 09, 2010 7:12 pm

i love this more 40k =


Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy


also who would make the other website?

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Re: New Proposal - League Format

Post  Guest on Tue Mar 09, 2010 7:16 pm

My post disappeared because I want to stay as far away from that discussion as possible. my opinion need not be repeated again, most people should be able to take a rough stab by now =|

I wouldn't mind an "'ard boyz" league, if it means some better competition (I need my ass roasted more!) and no more of the condescending "oh, you're a power gamer" attitudes. Seriously, I put up with it before but it's slowly ebbing away at my patience. I'm sorry I entrenched upon your holy ground, oh mighty one. sheesh.

Anyway, with that rhetoric aside... a separate forum would be nice, or at least, separate sections of this forum. One "tuff" and one "fluff" (btw, I really like those names Very Happy )

if needed, I have:
-my own domain (that I am paying for)
-a DNS service (that I paid for)
-my own server complete with linux/apache/mySQL blah blah

therefore, if a separate forum is required, I would be happy to host it out of my own pocket. I'm not going to moderate or anything (experience has taught me that I am a decent admin but a terrible moderator), just handle the nuts and bolts.

That being said, I think it is too complicated to have two forums because that means people have to register twice and it does give a very hard line of separation, but if required, I have the tools and the willpower!



Friday night for this 'ard boyz would be best, not only is the den open later (doesn't affect me 'cause I have to be in bed by 10pm anyway) but the thurs. group gets their peace.


Last edited by HolyCause on Tue Mar 09, 2010 8:07 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: New Proposal - League Format

Post  Guest on Tue Mar 09, 2010 7:18 pm

s second league. Seriously, we're all nerds, we're all looked down upon by people who don't play nerdy games at the back of the den. (Except musicians, because I mean seriously... lame Very Happy)[/quote]

dam i play the trombone Rolling Eyes

when wil this whole 2 leagues thing get into full swing

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Re: New Proposal - League Format

Post  Terran on Tue Mar 09, 2010 7:36 pm

I have to say that I like the idea of a 'Tuff' and a 'Fluff' semi-division in the league. It should allow players to gravitate towards what style of play they prefer. That is a good thing.

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Re: New Proposal - League Format

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