Space Marine Questions

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Space Marine Questions

Post  Guest on Thu Jan 21, 2010 6:20 pm

UPDATE: Have more questions about the Emperor's Finest, so I figured to just use one topic.

Can the Space Marine Librarian use his Null Zone power from within a Land Raider, even though it has no fire points?

This came up in a casual game and I just went with it, and I can't remember what passage from the rulebook he quoted.


Last edited by HolyCause on Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:43 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Space Marine Questions

Post  smackman on Thu Jan 21, 2010 7:30 pm

This has come up in a few of my games and I've allowed it, however I've never seen anything that says you can or can't do it. Just going with the American philosophy of if it doesn't say you can't then you can, although GW is British so maybe we should go with their philosophy that if it doesn't say you can do it then you can't.

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Re: Space Marine Questions

Post  Guest on Thu Jan 21, 2010 8:19 pm

Im not up to date on Space Marine powers,
but if it helps clarify,
A farseer can use any power from insde a waverserpent or falcon, and range is measured from any point on the vehicle. But it must be noted that all Eldar powers are non-shooting attacks.

If "Null-Feild" isnt a shooting attack it should work

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Re: Space Marine Questions

Post  Guest on Thu Jan 21, 2010 9:16 pm

Hm. One of the arguments my friend made was that he couldn't case Fortune from a Wave Serpent. I guess he's still stuck in 4th edition, or he just fails at reading rules.

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Re: Space Marine Questions

Post  Guest on Thu Jan 21, 2010 10:35 pm

I cant remember where I read it, but theres a thing that says that if a psycher is in a transport, measure the range from anywhere on the vehicle.. I just cant remember where Ive read it.

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Re: Space Marine Questions

Post  Guest on Fri Jan 22, 2010 1:13 am

This came up recently in an apoc game with me and Jim. The quote you're all thinking is from the 5th ed base FAQ

Psycic powers can be used from inside a vehicle, measured from the hull unless they are a shooting power, in which case they need firepoints and are measured from there.

Most people I know also extend this to abilities that radiate from a model (Such as Pedro's "Models within 12 gain an attack" bonus)

Null zone from landraider is a pretty basic tactic as far as I've heard, so no reason it shouldn't work. =)

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Re: Space Marine Questions

Post  Terran on Fri Jan 22, 2010 8:16 am

Remember with the Farseer powers though, if it specifies LoS (like Doom or Mind War), you need a fire point to use it. Other powers (like Fortune) don't specify that LoS is required to cast it. You just pick a unit in range. That is how you get a Farseer to Fortune the Falcon he is riding around in.

Unfortunately, I am not sure where null-zone sits on the LoS issue.

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Re: Space Marine Questions

Post  System Commander on Fri Jan 22, 2010 9:35 am

Yup, pretty much what I was going to say. Fire points are the important one on this.. IF you need LOS for Null Field.. Im not sure if you do or not, but definitely go with that. If you need LOS and Landraider has no fire points, your gonna have to climb out.

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Re: Space Marine Questions

Post  Guest on Fri Jan 22, 2010 10:19 am

OK, thanks guys. I'll slap my friend with this topic next time he argues I can't. Smile

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Re: Space Marine Questions

Post  Guest on Sat Jan 23, 2010 5:16 pm

I looked it up, and yeah, powers are measured from any point of the vehicle, and if they counted as shooting attacks requiring LoS, then you shoot form the fire point.

Eldar dont need LoS for any psychic attacks, but Chaos need LoS for all of them,.. I dont know where Space Marines stand

However all powers state whether or not they are:: "This counts as a shooting attack that requires LoS"

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Re: Space Marine Questions

Post  Terran on Sat Jan 23, 2010 8:14 pm

Hmmm, well, look at that. I could have sworn that there was a clause in Doom that specified it required LoS to the target. Oh well, that is what I get for reading multiple codexes and confusing rules between them.

As for Mind War and Psychic Storm, I have a hard time justifying that they are not psychic shooting attacks that require LoS (as per the main rule book). Seeing as how they both specified they are used in the shooting phase, are used instead of firing a weapon, and can have cover saves used against them (as per Eldar Faq: Mind War). Then again, Codex supposedly trumps main rule book, so...yeah.

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Re: Space Marine Questions

Post  Guest on Sun Jan 24, 2010 10:13 pm

Well I would have assumed the necessecity of LoS on Eldar abilities, untill I read the Chaos book where it specifically states that that Sorcerers use abilities that replace their shooting attakcs and require LoS. The Eldar book leaves it open, which means that it is not necessary in my book.

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Re: Space Marine Questions

Post  Guest on Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:44 am

Well, now I have a new question...

If Vulkan He'stan is in a group if Terminators, can he perform a sweeping advance? Adam says yes, my friend says no because "the unit must move as fast as the slowest unit." And since the Terminators can't perform a sweeping advance, poor Vulkan has to sit around with them.

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Re: Space Marine Questions

Post  Paz on Mon Jan 25, 2010 12:31 pm

I think that because, for all intents and purposes, the IC acts as a seperate unit in CC, you would test for sweeping advance to catch the unit with vulkan, but leave the termies out of it? That would make sense, showing vulkan chopping them down, while the termies power down their hammers and have a good larf about all the things they had just smushed.

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Re: Space Marine Questions

Post  Guest on Mon Jan 25, 2010 1:04 pm

Actually , Adam has recently revised his opinion to no.

Vulkan is only independant during the attacking bit of CC. When you get to resolution, which is when Sweeping advance is determined, he's considered part of the unit. Unfortunately what this ends up meaning is that any unit with a single model that is in termy armor cannot sweeping advance, including IC chars added to tac squads, or wolf guard termies added to anything in space wolves.

It sucks. Best solution is to run vulkan out to the side before your assault phase, then have him assault on his own, but even that isn't perfect as it leaves him very vunerable to direct shooting.

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Re: Space Marine Questions

Post  Guest on Mon Jan 25, 2010 1:30 pm

From what I've seen Carlos would be right on this one. Any unit with TA in it can not sweeping advance. That would include any IC with them.

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Re: Space Marine Questions

Post  Guest on Mon Jan 25, 2010 4:33 pm

as per 5th ed rules, the second u declare a charge, IC's become a unit on their own (who is also charging teh same target unit) They attack ONLY the models they can reach, and are attacked by the models who can reach them (so yes u can gang up on IC's). In every part of the assault tey act as their own unit. They can make sweeping advanced regardless of how many terminators there are sitting around them, Only when u get to consolidation movements where combat has been completed does the IC rejoin his unit.

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Re: Space Marine Questions

Post  Paz on Mon Jan 25, 2010 4:36 pm

Canadin= See, thats what I thought as well. Will have to peek at my book when I'm off work...

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Re: Space Marine Questions

Post  Veyure on Mon Jan 25, 2010 5:04 pm

according to the rulebook page 49, "When attacks are resolved, however, independant characters are always treated as separate unit. ... Once all attacks have been resolved, these characters are once again treated as normal members of the unit they have joined (from determining assault results onwards)."

So rules state that after attacks are resolved (to hit, to wound, armour saves) then they are one big happy unit again and so vulkan cannot sweeping advance a retreating unit if attatched to a unit of terminators.

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Re: Space Marine Questions

Post  smackman on Tue Jan 26, 2010 1:35 am

I agree with greg, because otherwise IC's can't grant bonus's to their unit in assault (cuz it would only apply to them) and I'd be making IC's take a pile of fearless wounds if they lost a combat, and then making the squad take those fearless tests or a leadership test independant of the IC's leadership (different squad). I think they should treat everything (including combat resolution) as one unit, however attack and wound allocation treats them as seperate units, exactly as greg just stated.

Long story short, no an IC can't sweep you when he's with joined to a unit of terminators.

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Re: Space Marine Questions

Post  Guest on Tue Jan 26, 2010 10:47 am

given the ruling above on if they are with the unit when assaulting, IC's return after attacking,

would everyone agree that if an IC leaves his unit during the movement phase, he can THEN start a multi-unit combat and sweeping advance next to some terminators.

EX, my slaanesh Sorcerer (I 6) leaves his unit of Termies in the movement phase (moves more than 2" away), They both then shoot the same enemy unit, and then assault it. Assuming Chaos wins melee combat, (cuz why wouldnt they?) The sorcerer should then be able to cut down the opposing unit in a sweeping advance while his terminators sit and watch since their armour is too heavy.

EX--Continued: If we accept what I have stated in EX 1, the two units (Sorcerer Unit + Terminators Unit) would end the combat as two different units. Now from what I understand, (and I may be wrong) if by their consolidation movement, become close to each other (within 2") would not the Sorcerer automatically re-attach to the terminators unit given 5th ed rules?

So to sum up, does it sound sensible if a IC would leave his unit in movement phase, in order to assault and keep his personal Initiative for sweeping advances?
And secondly, does it sound sensible if a IC re-attaches to that unit after making sweeping advances, or does that rule only apply to the movement phase?

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Re: Space Marine Questions

Post  Guest on Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:41 pm

canadin wrote: So to sum up, does it sound sensible if a IC would leave his unit in movement phase, in order to assault and keep his personal Initiative for sweeping advances?
And secondly, does it sound sensible if a IC re-attaches to that unit after making sweeping advances, or does that rule only apply to the movement phase?

On page 48 of the rulebook it says A character can only join or leave a unit in the movement phase. This leaves two options that I can see 1) Leave the character with the unit for the assault and the opposing players turn. or 2) Detatch the IC, assault, if the combat is won then sweeping advance, and leave the IC detatched for the opposing players turn untill your movement phase. For consolidation moves, sweeping advance the character IS NOT allowed to come within 2" of any unit.

Also on page 49 of the rulebook it states that IC's are considered part of the unit they joined "from determining assault results onward" since sweeping advance occurs after determining results the unit is considered hole again and IC's with a unit of terminators wont be able to sweeping advance.

Also on page 48 is the section on special rules. when reading this it leads me to believe that if one model in the unit can't do something then it applies to the whole unit. Although some people will read it and claim that since a units rule dont apply to the IC then it can sweeping advance despite being with terminators.

My understanding is yes they can detatch and assault but can't rejoin after the assault.

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Re: Space Marine Questions

Post  Veyure on Tue Jan 26, 2010 3:07 pm

You are correct Urlec. you cannot join or leave a unit with a IC except at the end of the movement phase. so post assault the IC must remain 2 inches or more away from other unit.

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Re: Space Marine Questions

Post  System Commander on Wed Jan 27, 2010 12:00 am

My initial instinct would be to say no, being trapped with the slow mkoving terminators. As far as I can tell from the rules brought up, you guys more or less have things summed up.

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