Jemals Guard 2K

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Jemals Guard 2K

Post  Guest on Wed Nov 25, 2009 2:20 am

So, with all the talk on that powergaming thread, I feel the urge to post something here. This is the first list I wrote up (after the 5th ed Codex came out) of what I thought would be a fun guard army in the new edition.
Considering the discussions that have been going on, I felt that I should post it here and ask everybody (Or as many as are willing to respond) what they think. Cheezy? Balanced? Powerful? Weak? Fun? Should I even bother or would people end up boycotting it?

The army has 9 vehicles and 11 infantry units(3 of which are in vehicles), with a total(thanks to retinue) of 21 Kill points.
It's an Imperial Inquisitor leading a group of mixed Cadian and catachan regiments (or rather the remnants thereof)

HQ:
Malleus Inquisitor Lord(135):
Inquisitor: Psychic Hood, Storm Bolter - 75 pts
Retinue: 3 Mystics, 1 Sage, 2 Acolytes(Power Armour): 60

Company Command Squad: (135 pts)
Company Commander, 4 Veterans(Missile launcher, 2 Sniper Rifles), Master of Ordnance(Artillery Bombardment), Officer of the Fleet(Intercept) *Chimera*

Troops:
Infantry Platoon: (280 pts)
Command Squad: 1 Commander, 4 Guardsmen(4 Grenade Launchers) *Chimera* - 50 pts
Infantry Squad: 1 Sergeant, 9 Guardsmen(1 Grenade Launcher, 1 Missile Launcher) - 70 pts
Infantry Squad: 1 Sergeant, 9 Guardsmen(1 Grenade Launcher, 1 Missile Launcher) - 70 pts
Heavy Weapon Squad: 3 Heavy Weapon Teams(Missile Launchers) - 90 pts

Veteran Squad: Gunnery Sergeant Harker(Heavy Bolter), 9 vets(3 Grenade Launchers) - 140

Vet Squad: 1 Sergeant, 9 Vets(3 Sniper Rifles, Missile Launcher) *Chimera* - 100 pts

Elites:
*Vindicare Assassin: 1 Assassin(Exitus Rifle, Infiltrate, Spy Mask, Stealth Suit) - 110 pts
Ratling Squad: 5 Ratlings(Sniper Rifles, Infiltrate, Stealth) - 50
Ratling Squad: 5 Ratlings(Sniper Rifles, Infiltrate, Stealth) - 50

Fast Attack:
Vendetta Gunship: 3 Twin-linked Lascannons - 130
Vendetta Gunship: 3 Twin-linked Lascannons - 130
Vendetta Gunship: 3 Twin-linked Lascannons - 130

Heavy:
Leman Russ Vanquisher: Knight Commander Pask (Vanquisher Cannon, Hull-mounted Lascannon, 2 Sponson Plasma Cannons) - 260
Hydra Flak Tank: 2 Twin-linked Hydra Autocannons, Heavy Bolter - 75
Hydra Flak Tank: 2 Twin-linked Hydra Autocannons, Heavy Bolter - 75

Dedicated Transports: (195)
3X Chimeras: 5 Fire Points(Hatch), Turret Heavy Bolter, Hull Heavy Bolter, Pintle Heavy Stubber - 65 each

Total Cost: 1995

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Re: Jemals Guard 2K

Post  Veyure on Wed Nov 25, 2009 8:59 am

I'll give you composition score from the gw tournament kit. 11 out of 30 points. or 37%

the issues with list are as follows:
-max HQ choices
-HQ >10% of total army
-max elite choices
-Troops <40% of total army (yes gw feels troops should take up 40% of army)
-max fast attack choices
-max heavy choices
-heavy choices >20%
-Vendettas are duplicates of each other
-duplicate chimeras
-duplicate ratlings
score starts at 30 and is penalized per infraction.

this a mechanical view of composition.
Cheers

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Re: Jemals Guard 2K

Post  gluvzer on Wed Nov 25, 2009 10:01 am

The only issue I would ever have at all with this list is the Vendetta spam.

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Re: Jemals Guard 2K

Post  Guest on Wed Nov 25, 2009 1:44 pm

I like the list. I'm not big on building guard, but wouldn't manticores be a better choice than Hydras? Hydras are good, but... manticore seem better.

D3 STR10 ordinance barrage weapons... yikes. The limited ammo seems kinda meh, because if you die you still fired off some good amount of templates, and if you run out of ammo... stuff's probably already dead Very Happy

EDIT: If GW wants more troops in games then make most troops not suck!

Comparible comp score to my necrons at 13 Very Happy

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Re: Jemals Guard 2K

Post  System Commander on Wed Nov 25, 2009 2:53 pm

Thos comp scores are deifintely a bit outdated now, but can serve as a general guideline.

I dont mind the list, but like Ryan.. I find the 3 vendettas a bit over the top.

Thats the problem witht eguard, they have to many choices now for Hevy support! And not only alot.. but so many cool ones. I like the Hydras because they tear through light armored vehicles and even dreadnaughts easily.. and so cheap... However, like Alex said.. the Manticores are also tempting.. you only really need a good 3-4 turns of shooting with them anyway so who cares if they run out of ammo then.

They you got the Lemans, basilisks, griffons, medusa's.. agh.. too much to think about Smile

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Re: Jemals Guard 2K

Post  Guest on Wed Nov 25, 2009 11:12 pm

HolyCause wrote:I like the list. I'm not big on building guard, but wouldn't manticores be a better choice than Hydras? Hydras are good, but... manticore seem better.

D3 STR10 ordinance barrage weapons... yikes. The limited ammo seems kinda meh, because if you die you still fired off some good amount of templates, and if you run out of ammo... stuff's probably already dead Very Happy

EDIT: If GW wants more troops in games then make most troops not suck!

Comparible comp score to my necrons at 13 Very Happy

problems with manticores:
A = hard to get (though hydras are in the same boat right now)
B = 200 points for 1 manticore vs 75 for a hydra. could nearly buy 3 hydras per manticore.
C = TARGET
D = Meh, I just don't really want them.

Thanks for the suggestion, but I have my reasons... I wouldn't mind getting ahold of a deathstrike for apoc though. Smile


Also, that chart just seems silly to me.. For example, it's meant to stop cheezy lists, but if someones min-maxing, that just gives them another aspect to min-max. People that DO that wouldn't let a list stop them..

Example: Doesn't break ANY of the rules on that list, so it's a 30 point list, yet I think it's pretty freakin powerful. (I made this list up in about 15 minutes just from models I have available, I'm sure somebody wanting to break a tourney could do a lot better)

HQ:
Company Command Squad: (130 pts)
Company Commander, 4 Veterans(Autocannon, 2 Sniper Rifles), Master of Ordnance(Artillery Bombardment, Laspistol), Officer of the Fleet(Intercept Reserves)

Troops:
Veteran Squad: Gunnery Sergeant Harker(Heavy Bolter), 9 vets(3 Grenade Launchers) - 140 pts
Veteran Squad: Vet sergeant, 9 Vets(Autocannon, 3 Grenade Launchers) *Chimera* - 95 pts

Infantry Platoon:(355 Pts)
Command Squad: 1 Commander, 4 Guardsmen(4 Grenade Launchers) *Chimera* - 50 pts
Infantry Squad: 1 Sergeant, 9 Guardsmen(Grenade Launcher) - 55 pts
Infantry Squad: 1 Sergeant, 9 Guardsmen(Grenade Launcher) - 55 pts
Heavy Weapon Squad: 3 Heavy Weapon Teams(Lascannons) - 105 pts
Heavy Weapon Squad: 3 Heavy Weapon Teams(Missile Launchers) - 90 pts

Infantry Platoon:(325 Pts)
Command Squad: 1 Commander, 4 Guardsmen(4 Grenade Launchers) *Chimera* - 50 pts
Infantry Squad: 1 Sergeant, 9 Guardsmen(Grenade Launcher) - 55 pts
Infantry Squad: 1 Sergeant, 9 Guardsmen(Grenade Launcher) - 55 pts
Heavy Weapon Squad: 3 Heavy Weapon Teams(Autocannons) - 75 pts
Heavy Weapon Squad: 3 Heavy Weapon Teams(Missile Launchers) - 90 pts

Elite:
Ratling Squad: 6 Ratlings(Sniper Rifles, Infiltrate, Stealth) - 60 pts
Ratling Squad: 4 Ratlings(Sniper Rifles, Infiltrate, Stealth) - 40 pts

Fast Attack:
Vendetta: 3 Twin-linked Lascannons(Sponson Heavy Bolters) - 140 pts
Vendetta: 3 Twin-linked Lascannons - 130 pts

Heavy:
Leman Russ Battle Tank: Battle Cannon, Hull-mounted Heavy Bolter, 2 Sponson Heavy Bolters) - 170 pts
Leman Russ Vanquisher: Knight Commander Pask(Vanquisher Cannon, Hull-mounted Lascannon) - 220 pts

Dedicated Transports: (195)
Chimera: 5 Fire Points(Hatch), Turret Multilaser, Hull Heavy Bolter, Pintle Heavy Stubber - 65 pts (Vets)
Chimera: 5 Fire Points(Hatch), Turret Heavy Flamer, Hull Heavy Bolter, Pintle Heavy Stubber - 65 pts (PCS1)
Chimera: 5 Fire Points(Hatch), Turret Multilaser, Hull Heavy Flamer, Pintle Heavy Stubber - 65 pts (PCS2)

Total Cost: 2000

And if you guys happen to think that this IS a balanced list, then hell I'll start playing it *L* I've got all the models anyways, and now that I look at it, I kinda like it..

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Re: Jemals Guard 2K

Post  Guest on Wed Nov 25, 2009 11:40 pm

BTW, In case the point of that last posted list was lost on anybody, it is as follows:

If I could make that in 15 minutes with what I have on hand, Imagine what someone with more models, more time, and who actually has the inclination to tweak their list could do and still be 'technically non-cheezy' (HEck, I even threw in snipers and Grenades, which most guard players have told me is stupid). That's the problem with any such checklist - It's trying to quantify something that should be objective..

I'm not saying there shouldn't be guidelines, but... seriously, it doesn't stop the people who are the real problem, it just hampers normal folk.

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Re: Jemals Guard 2K

Post  Veyure on Thu Nov 26, 2009 12:09 am

any unit not a troop choice and any vehicle of the same type 'regardless of upgrades or weapons' count as duplicate. so the ratlings, vendettas and chimeras are still duplicate and therefore not a 30 point list.

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Re: Jemals Guard 2K

Post  System Commander on Thu Nov 26, 2009 9:33 am

Thats a great looking list! Personally, I think you should take a Valkyrie instead that way you have one flying vehicle on tank hunting detail and one on deployment detail.

I thought for some reason that the ratlings were 0-1, but Im probably just grabbing info from the previous edition. You can always throw them into one ten man strong squad.

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Re: Jemals Guard 2K

Post  Guest on Thu Nov 26, 2009 9:38 pm

Robyn - Aye, I originally had them in a 10 squad, but the two smaller squads have the chance for 2 pinning tests, and deal the same damage for the same cost if I choose to shoot them at the same opponent, which is why I split them originally. I only use the elite choices for them and anything I Ally in fron Inquisition, so I had space.
As far as restricted units, the new guard don't have any outside of what you can put in an infantry platoon(1 command squad, 0-5 infantry squads, etc).

I understand that people tend to find multiple valkyries kinda cheap, but I just prefer having the big powerful, Tank/Terminator/Monster killing guns. With the amount of small arms (Grenades, sniper rifles, multilasers, heavy bolters, etc) that I have, anti-infantry isn't really a problem for me. Just ask Zack how much trouble I have taking out his *&#$^! battle wagon! *L*
Plus, I like the symetry of two gunships blowing stuff up. Smile

I think I'm going to do a few mods to that list (as I said, it was originally made in about 15-20 minutes and some of the modifications are just to mess with that silly checklist, so I do have some changes that'd be made to make it a 'real' list), but I'm gonna try it or something similar next time I come in.

Veyure - Sorry, I must've misread the way that works, but the point still stands... the checklist only works for people who wouldn't try to be cheezy anyways.

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Re: Jemals Guard 2K

Post  Guest on Thu Nov 26, 2009 9:57 pm

Despite the simply ridiculous amount of vehicles I'd like to play against this guard list sometime (the first one). It would be a massive turkey shoot but it would be a very fun one.

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Re: Jemals Guard 2K

Post  System Commander on Fri Nov 27, 2009 1:00 am

7 vehicles for a guard list isnt that bad at all... unless you want to play a different type of list.. 2-3 chimeras, 1-2 valkyries/vendettas and a heavy support choice or two are almost standard for a guard list these days.. chimeras are way to good to not take.. and valkyries are pretty darn awesome.

I havent faced anyone taking lemans in a squadron yet though.. Im curious as how well that will work out.

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Re: Jemals Guard 2K

Post  Guest on Fri Nov 27, 2009 1:12 am

yeah, it's not the number of vehicles in that list that are awesome, it's what they can do (Like the three vendettas vs tanks). I don't think I'll be picking up a third though, as everybody seems to have problems with them.

The last list i was playing had 12. (3 Sentinels, 2 vendettas, 2 Lemans, 2 Basilisks, 3 Chimeras), That's pretty much the upper end you'll ever see on a table non-apoc. A Half dozen is the average for guard lists, IMO.

I'm redoing the last list I posted in an attempt to get a 'real' list going, I'll post it up here when I'm finished and get some opinions.

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Re: Jemals Guard 2K

Post  Guest on Fri Nov 27, 2009 1:15 am

It's a ridiculous amount of vehicles for my Necrons Razz

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Re: Jemals Guard 2K

Post  Guest on Fri Nov 27, 2009 1:23 am

What isn't? *L* Necrons aren't exactly the cream of the crop when it comes to dealing with vehicles. Not saying they suck, but... well, they don't exactly rock either.

Sides, there's still plenty of squishies for you to play with.

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Re: Jemals Guard 2K

Post  Lord_Commander_Stash on Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:20 pm

A very interesting list. And not cheesy at all at first glance.

I dont think there is anything wrong with the 3 valkyries like Ryan said. These are the only anti tank he has, as all his other guns are anti infantry/light vehicle. However when people see 3 of ANYTHING they automatically call it cheesy.
-also people like to see a variety of weapons in an IG army, or otherwise think you are min maxing (yes its silly).
-Taking the vindicare adds to the theme of the army, especially since he is the worst buy in the game.

The only areas I would critique would be:
-anti 2+ save/monsterous creature
-there really isnt any units for your vendettas to transport (they have the option may as well give it some consideration).

I think plasma guns and the Bring it Down order are great against monstrous creatures. Sadly, missile launchers just dont cut it with all the 2+ saves out there, especially vs Monsters. The leave the vendettas and the russ to deal with those.

An issue I find is that only fielding one leman russ just gives your opponents heavy hitting anti tank stuff 1 target to deal with (sorta like taking a soul grinder in daemons as your only vehicle)

Considering the heavy hitting anti infantry aspect of your army, it seems to over look some obvious choices for dealing with infantry:

-hellhound/bane wolf or valkyrie
-heavy flamers on some of your chimeras (its awesome) and I plan to put heavy flamers on my basilisks and griffon too.

The master of ordinance is a model for fun games since statistically his incompetence lands the basilisk round somewhere to the side of the target unit, normally missing entirely.

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Re: Jemals Guard 2K

Post  Guest on Sat Nov 28, 2009 12:39 am

The master of ordinance is a model for fun games since statistically his incompetence lands the basilisk round somewhere to the side of the target unit, normally missing entirely.
I think it only works truly well in a template spamming army. The opponent is going to spread out in order not to get completely wasted by those that do direct hit (and don't always scatter, like the MoO's shot). If he's spread out, the more a chance the MoO's hit is just going to scatter onto something else.

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Re: Jemals Guard 2K

Post  Guest on Sun Nov 29, 2009 1:57 pm

Like my allied space marines. *Glares at Jim.*

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Re: Jemals Guard 2K

Post  Guest on Mon Nov 30, 2009 4:27 pm

I assure you, Commander Caros, that the offender firing that shot has been executed. And It most assuredly was not me...*weak laugh*

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Re: Jemals Guard 2K

Post  Guest on Mon Nov 30, 2009 5:09 pm

Lord_Commander_Stash wrote:A very interesting list. And not cheesy at all at first glance.

I dont think there is anything wrong with the 3 valkyries like Ryan said. These are the only anti tank he has, as all his other guns are anti infantry/light vehicle. However when people see 3 of ANYTHING they automatically call it cheesy.
-also people like to see a variety of weapons in an IG army, or otherwise think you are min maxing (yes its silly).
-Taking the vindicare adds to the theme of the army, especially since he is the worst buy in the game.

The only areas I would critique would be:
-anti 2+ save/monsterous creature
-there really isnt any units for your vendettas to transport (they have the option may as well give it some consideration).

I think plasma guns and the Bring it Down order are great against monstrous creatures. Sadly, missile launchers just dont cut it with all the 2+ saves out there, especially vs Monsters. The leave the vendettas and the russ to deal with those.
10 Lascannons, 7 Missile Launchers, 4 Hydra Autocannons, 15 Sniper Rifles, 9 Grenade Launchers, 6 Heavy Bolters, 3 Multilasers(The turrets on the chims are SUPPOSED to be multilasers, I typoed heavy bolters), 2 plasma cannons, a Vanquisher Cannon and the vindicare isn't enough variety? Sad
I thought I had most of my bases fairly covered.. 3 vens and pask to deal with 2+ armour/heavy tanks, missile launchers to deal with 3+ armour/vehicles, and everything else for anti infantry/annoy light tanks.

An issue I find is that only fielding one leman russ just gives your opponents heavy hitting anti tank stuff 1 target to deal with (sorta like taking a soul grinder in daemons as your only vehicle)
Yeah I had thought of that, I usually field 2 of them, but I usually find my opponent more worried about using his anti-tank against my vens than Pask. I might just drop the hydras alltogether and replace them with a second russ (If I can find the extra points somewhere)


Considering the heavy hitting anti infantry aspect of your army, it seems to over look some obvious choices for dealing with infantry:

-hellhound/bane wolf or valkyrie
-heavy flamers on some of your chimeras (its awesome) and I plan to put heavy flamers on my basilisks and griffon too.
Hellhounds/Valkyries would have to take the place of a vendetta as they're all fast attack choices, meaning any I take lower my anti-tank/MC power and I have to get it from elsewhere.
My main problem with flamers is that my view of the fight is thus: I run a long range gunline, if something gets close enough that the flamers useful, it's probably too late for it to make a difference. I just prefer having longer range even though everybody online keeps saying "flamers, plasma, melta are what you should play!" (I don't even know why I ask opinions on some of the bigger boards anymore, that's pretty much the standard response).
I think maybe some of my dislike of the flamer/plasma/melta comes from my rebelling against that as well.


The master of ordinance is a model for fun games since statistically his incompetence lands the basilisk round somewhere to the side of the target unit, normally missing entirely.
Eh, 30 points for an extra bassie shot that has a slightly worse chance of hitting isn't that bad IMO. If he can draw line of sight, he still subtracts his BS of 4, so he's still got an 'ok' chance of hitting his target, and Yes, he has had a couple SPECTACULAR misfires.. Notably the apoc game where he fired without line of sight into night fighting and rolled something like two feet to land on Adams command squad. (As he alluded to above)
But I still enjoy him and get enough use out of him to justify the 30 points.

Thanks very much for your breakdown of the list, it was appreciated and some of the points you made actually got me thinking about why I use some of the stuff I do. Heck, alot of it is just b/c those are the models I have available.



Robyn/Alex - Also, apologies to you two. When you'd been pointing out the manticores before, I got a bit confused. Not sure why I thought they were 200, as they're only 160. Still the cost of 2 Hydras, but not 3 like I'd originally thought, so maybe worth a look at after all.

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Re: Jemals Guard 2K

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