"Power Gaming" - why bother???

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"Power Gaming" - why bother???

Post  miv305 on Fri Nov 20, 2009 2:22 pm

Before I start my rant I just want to say that I am very pleased with all of the renewed interest that 40K has seen in Saskatoon recently. We have a great opportunity to further develop the hobby here in the city and ensure that interest continues to grow. Having said that I’ve also noticed a disturbing trend of late, it’s become pretty obvious that a lot of players are resorting to “power-gaming”.

For those of you unfamiliar with the term “power-gaming” it essentially means that a player will play the game with the sole purpose of winning at all costs. Now everyone wants to win (myself included) and there isn’t anything wrong with giving your opponent a good game, but let’s remember the spirit of the hobby is to have fun. Losing to an internet list that depends on wound allocation abuse or having the game shortened to 3-4 turns because your opponent depends on abusing reserve rules is not fun. These lists, and the players who depend on them to win, tend to turn new players away and often lead to frustrating, overly competitive games that do nothing but reinforce the stereotype that we (the almighty generals of plastic spacemen) suffer from some sort of mental disorder.

10 years ago 40K was booming and there wasn’t any reason to think the trend wouldn’t continue. Unfortunately power-gaming became the norm (I started playing Biel-Tan for “friendly games”) and people started to get a little turned off, games weren’t fun anymore and new players had zero chance to play in a friendly, supportive and fun atmosphere. Eventually the pool of players shrunk to the point that the hobby almost disappeared. It’s an important lesson that we should try to remember right now.

We have a chance to initiate a whole new group of people into the hobby and I think it’s important that we promote and game the right way. Let’s put away our dual Lash lists and our 20 Nob Biker lists. Let’s focus on trying out new things and *gasp* writing our own lists instead of downloading them from Bell of Lost Souls. Good generalship and lucky dice are more then enough to win a game. Let’s let those decide who wins instead of bending rules, “power-gaming” and resorting to other unsavory tactics.

What say you?

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Re: "Power Gaming" - why bother???

Post  Timbo on Fri Nov 20, 2009 2:58 pm

I have no problem with playing against any list. You seem to be saying that the list is what makes a player a WAAC (win at all costs) guy. I completely disagree. The way the guy plays makes him a WAAC guy. If my opponent knows the rules, is up front with me about WYSIWYG models and measures his moves accurately then that is great. If he does not whine or gloat too much then that is great. If he congratulates me on a game well-played instead of blaming his dice then that is great. The list does not matter one iota.

In fact, pushing lists are what shifts the metagame. Dual-lash was considered a "broken" list when taken in the context of 4th edition. Now in 5th with the abundance of mech the dual-lash list is a quaint curiousity. Abusing wound allocation is not abuse, it is playing within the rules of 40K. It is your job to figure out how to beat it. You can spam high strength shooting, or assault them with dedicated assault units for starters.

If I'm playing someone, I want their "A" game against what they feel is their strongest list. If they think reserving their whole army gives them the best chance to win, then I hope they do it. In fact, there are some high-mobility armies that are best when all reserved because they don't hold up well in slugfests. Reserving them is not trying to win at all costs, it's trying to win. Don't get me wrong, I don't mind having a game with a goofy list every once in while to try something new out or experiment with some new tactics. Playing the same old list over and over can get boring (although it is vital when preparing for a tourney). But I find the most satisfying games are the ones where two veteran players play tight lists versus each other.

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Re: "Power Gaming" - why bother???

Post  Cjihad on Fri Nov 20, 2009 3:14 pm

I know that some older players haven't even signed up to play in this league because of this. If older players are getting turned off by this trend, then how do a lot of these newer players feel?

I enjoy playing against a strong list. Whether I win or lose against it, I’ve learned what I would do differently the next time I play against that list. I don't have fun playing a game where no matter what type of excellent and sexy tactics I use I still get tabled.

I understand using a list like these in a tournament setting, but the 40k league is for people to have fun. Power gaming is not fun and it takes away from the spirit of the game. I think that if people don't want to play against a Power gamers list, then DON’T. Play against the people you want and will have fun playing against.

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Re: "Power Gaming" - why bother???

Post  Administratum on Fri Nov 20, 2009 3:29 pm

Very eloquently put sir, i have never before seen you so diplomatic. Im glad you posted this up, because IMO you have something of an unbiased view of the current league, being that you are not really that active in it. The fact that you used to be one of those power gamers, and that you saw first hand what it can do to the hobby gives you credibility that most of us do not have as well.

For those of you that dont know Mike, he is pretty old school. He was playing 40k when allot of you younger guys were still eating cat poop in the sandbox. So take note. He isnt just on here bitching because he got tabled last week by someone with a power list, he put this up because he has the maturity to honestly understand and care about the future of the game and the league.

For me, i think that allot of this boils down to maturity and self confidence. When you are young, winning is so very important. I dont want to start ragging on people for being immature, or insecure, because that is part of being young.... This game is not an accurate measure of your IQ though, and no one should feel that they need to win to prove anything. Having said that i can very much relate to wanting to win a tournament, or the league, just as a personal accomplishment. I can tell you from experience here that it will truly be a hollow victory if you accomplish these goals through abusive means. I played for 3+ years in the league and never took top spot. When i finally did win the league, it was with a list that everyone thought was broken and which made me a very unpopular opponent. Yea, i won, but not a single person said nice work, or congratz. Instead, as some of you might have noticed, i still get ragged on for it a year later (thanks for the shout Mike!). And let me say this. It was not anywhere near as bad as what the BoLS list was... Nor was it as bad as some of the lists i have seen as of late.

In reality you cannot always expect people to do what is right for the group, or to care about other peoples feelings, and whether they enjoy the hobby or not. There have always been unpleasant people in the hobby, and there always will be. What i have seen in 5 years though, is that these individuals tend to have a shorter than average stay in HoTW. So really what im saying is that playing nice is in YOUR best interest.

Ok, feel free to tear into me about my lash list now. I fully expect it.

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Re: "Power Gaming" - why bother???

Post  miv305 on Fri Nov 20, 2009 4:57 pm

"You seem to be saying that the list is what makes a player a WAAC (win at all costs) guy. I completely disagree."

How can a person say they are not trying to win at all costs if they design a list whose sole purpose, and way of achieving victory, is to abuse or bend rules? I agree that there's a lot more then what list he/she is using that makes a person a WAAC player; however, saying that it's a non-factor is being either naive or perhaps a little bit defensive. It's easy to say I don't mind playing any list out there when I have already squeezed every last bit of juice out of my codex. Furthermore, hiding behind excuses like I need to run this or play that is a cop-out.

I've seen an Imperial Guard army win a tournament in 3rd edition (a very difficult feat as guard were terrible back then) and I guarantee that person got a great deal of respect from the community because people saw that he won by making solid game-time decisions, being a good sport and not making people want to hang themselves because they were up against 4 Wave Serpents and 3 Wraithlords (which is what I played that day so long ago...).

My main point is lets try and make the league a place where people can learn, experiment and have some fun even if it means you have to dustoff those Swooping Hawks/Ogryns/Vanguard, etc... once in awhile.

What say you?

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Re: "Power Gaming" - why bother???

Post  Guest on Fri Nov 20, 2009 8:18 pm

I don't really know how to feel about this current take on the new league. I haven't seen any armies that have been too overpowered yet personally. Of course, this is only my second league and I wouldn't know about alot of the stuff the vets are talking about. I'm currently playing a tau farsight list, which I will admit gets alot of usage of the multiwound complex models in a similar format to say the nob bikers (though you won't find alot of nob bikers casting over 100 points per model ;P ). And yes this list did win the last league tournament. But honestly all of its games were decently matched, I only tabled one out of 3 matches and that was against an opponent who was one iota away from tabling me. Last league it only had a 50/50 win record, and this time its only a little better. I still have to deal with people who believe I'm using an abuse but honstly I'm not using it to win. I'm using it to make a concept I think is very entertaining capable of at least lasting a whole game with out being wiped off the table. And thats what I've seen alot of guys using these things for that as well.

Of course, people will definatly be able to tell I'm not in it for the winning when I switch to my dark eldar next league lol.


Last edited by Darksfear on Sat Nov 21, 2009 12:34 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: "Power Gaming" - why bother???

Post  Guest on Fri Nov 20, 2009 8:49 pm

I believe that it is a competetive game and for the most part, people are trying to win. People generally like using lists that have a chance of winning(I know I do). Having a powerful list and playing to win are different from WAAC (IMO). At All Costs implies that nothing else matters, and I haven't seen a game yet where that was the case. Granted some of us can get rather competetive, but it's still just a game, and I haven't played anyone yet who didn't understand that.

With regards to the abusive lists, I'm not sure if you're referring to anybody in particular in the current league, but I've been fairly active and haven't yet seen a list that I thought was abusive. My own all mech Guard list (Or Zacks mech ork to a lesser extent) is about the closest I've seen this league to 'cheap' or 'cheezy' b/c it overloads with vehicles, but what can I say: I love tanks, they're the reason I play the game. (Heck, my first model was a baneblade!)

Back on topic though, I do agree with the OP(Mike, right?) that playing JUST to win isn't what the sport is about - I think it was summed up best during a discussion over on Librarium Online(Where this topic pops up roughly twice a week): "The OBJECTIVE is to win, the POINT is to have fun". I play to win, definitely, but if it's not fun for both players, then whats the point? I enjoy winning, but when I'm winning a game where my opponents army is inneffectual or struck by dice-god hatred (What's that, 17 ones in a row?), it's just not fun. For either of us.

Having a very competetive list vs someone who doesn't can definitely make it less fun (Especially if the battle is very one-sided), but that' has a lesser effect than the players and how they play the game and interact with each other. That's what truley makes the game fun.

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Re: "Power Gaming" - why bother???

Post  Timbo on Sun Nov 22, 2009 11:27 am

I'd like to thank Mike for making this post. I think it has generated some really good discussion. This is what forums are all about! People really do play 40K for different reasons, and this is coming across here. I think we all agree that when two good sports play a fun game is had by both. There seems to be some grey area over whether bringing a min-maxed or net list is a part of sportsmanship. I lean towards no, others may say yes.

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Re: "Power Gaming" - why bother???

Post  ScottRadom on Sun Nov 22, 2009 12:36 pm

For any game where your opponent has an opportunity to gain an advantage before the game begins (for the GW stuff it's army lists) there is always an element of gamers who will endeavor to win the game before it starts. Min maxing, or whatever. Some say that the nature of the game should be both players bringing the most powerful list they can create and playing the most hard fought game using all the tools in the rulebook to try and secure victory. Some people like that. But some people probably eat poo and think it tastes like chocolate too.

There was a time when Fantasy had a much stronger player base than 40k in the city. We found that as the league became bigger it saw a strong contingent of the league grow extremely competitive. Winning a 20 man league is a more satisfying achievement than winning a 6 man league. That's why the super bowl means something but the Grey Cup is the prize given to the crappy 6th string atheletes some of you retards cheer for (suck that one CFL!). Once the player count blossomed we started to see the most abusive lists going, and then the player base started to shrink. We tried to do things to minimize the amount of what we called power gaming by introducing incentives for bringing what we thought were balanced lists. Didn't work that well. There were scenarios introduced to try and halt the crazy meta gaming. That made it worse. There was no fix we could come up with. Now the league has shrunk but of the 10 or so players there is a pretty secure "gentlemans agreement" that you don't show up with a =I=censor=I= list. If you do, don't expect a long list of messages on your machine looking for games. You'll get blackballed son!

There's no fix to this issue. Best you can do is raise awareness like Mike did (Good one!) and point out that what you call fun is putting others off the game or the league in general. I reccomend a good dose of social boycotting until the offenders are left without any players to play against! Blackball the =I=censor=I= out of them!

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Re: "Power Gaming" - why bother???

Post  Timbo on Sun Nov 22, 2009 7:01 pm

miv305 wrote:" It's easy to say I don't mind playing any list out there when I have already squeezed every last bit of juice out of my codex. Furthermore, hiding behind excuses like I need to run this or play that is a cop-out.


Really?

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Re: "Power Gaming" - why bother???

Post  Guest on Mon Nov 23, 2009 12:04 am

I don't think list building makes a power gamer, that's a simply ridiculous. I think that gameplay attitude and indeed conduct does that. If someone's a jackass about the rules and doing things such as bending interpretations to their favour or quoting plainly wrong information then I believe it to be an issue. "My company champion can consolidate 24" - it's written in crayon!"

Often times I've brought the same "maxed" list to differing viewpoints; once a game where I just wanted to waste some time commanding my plastic soldiers whilst getting in some social contact, the other where my goal was to do as best as I can. The games were just that, friendly and competitive respectively. The list didn't make the game attitude, the players did.

Building lists is another skill in this game, just like the skill of good deployment, good assault tactics (don't rush with those firewarriors!), avoidance, and a lot of other things. If you pull a list from the internet, well, good for you; it's just that, a list. You have to know how to use it inorder to make it "good". However, this doesn't change the fact that it's overly irrelevant from personal conduct in a game.

If you would boycott playing with someone who has a "good" list, then why not boycott those with a "bad" lists? Seems like a bit of a double standard to me: you can do unto others what the other guy (with the "good" list) can't do unto others.

If a newbie gets discouraged of continuing to play in a league of experienced Warhammer players because they consistantly lose... wow, sucks to be them; pack up your ego and never come back. I'm not trying to be elitist, I'm trying to use logic. I accept the fact that I'm a newb and will get crushed again and again and again.

You wouldn't expect to play against some experienced golf players and win, would you? That's just plain !@#$in' stupid.

Let’s focus on trying out new things and *gasp* writing our own lists instead of downloading them from Bell of Lost Souls
Nitpick here, but I'd never get a list from BoLS. That website is filled with... garbage. I saw a "power gamer" list that included Tigerius.


I could just be listing off a whole bunch of obvious things, my ability to argue beings to falter after 10PM. So to re-iterate what I'm trying to say: list building is a skill; skill doesn't define the tone ("competitive" or "casual") of a game. If a newbie gets discouraged because they lost, they can go away. If they get discouraged because the one other person was a =I=censor=I= (and thereby they think everyone there is a =I=censor=I=), well, they have issues. If everyone's a =I=censor=I=, then it's time for some self-reflection on everyone's part.

EDIT: Is there a way to turn off the censor client-side, as in on a user per user basis? I don't take offence to certain "wrong" words (they're just words...) and it's annoying to have posts replaced with something that brutally ruins the flow of a sentence.

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Re: "Power Gaming" - why bother???

Post  Administratum on Mon Nov 23, 2009 1:02 am

If you want the censorship turned off you will have to present your case to one of the admins. I will already tell you no, but Robyn has the ultimate say. This site is open to all, including our younger members as well as anyone else who searches 40k on the internet. We have a responsibility to present our hobby in a positive light if possible.

As a new person to the game, i find it interesting that you are able to dispense so much wisdom. There are allot of flaws in the arguments you are presenting, but i dont have the time or desire to point them out. I do agree with one thing that you brought up, and that is that peoples attitudes will largely determine how they are viewed in the league.

As Scott recommended, and i pointed out, peoples behavior will eventually determine how long they are welcome in the group. We can argue about who is right and wrong all we want, in the end it is all subjective. I guess only time will tell what the future of the league will be.

Taking a moment to reflect upon all this, it is a shame when a group of people with common interests become so divided. Of course i am one of the primary contributors to this division, so i dont know that i have the moral grounds to condemn it now.
This topic generated some good discussion, but it is starting to degenerate. The last post seemed overly aggressive, and there have been some comments directed at specific people, which is not really acceptable.

I dont think that anything of value can be added to what has already been said, so this topic is being locked down before it degenerated any further.

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Re: "Power Gaming" - why bother???

Post  System Commander on Mon Nov 23, 2009 1:27 am

Ill make it short since we've locked it down already.

I dont mind playing against the tough lists if I know so ahead of time. As in, if I know Im playing a guy whos been playing tough lists, Ill bring a tough as well and we can have at it. If I didnt like the game, I might wait awhile before we have at er again, and in the meantime that player will most likely hear that people dont wany to play that list anymore or might it find ithard finding a game. I bring a different list every time I play just becasue I like to mix it up myself, and I have a ton of crap I have to make use out of.

That being said, Id rather a friendly environment rather than one thats moving towards really tough and hard lists. Keep it light and fun and take a look at your list ahead and think, would I dislike playing against this army?

And Alex, you really have to take it back a notch. Its a friendly league thats sponsored by Dragons Den. We function at their whim, and a big basis of our relationship is to help new players and be friendly. I definitely wont tolerate any of the "play however you want and if the newbs cant take it, they leave" attitude. We should be striving to make sure everyone is having a good time. Part of that relationship with the Den means kids and their parent probably com,ing on here from time to time. There is no way to turn off the censor from your end, and since people forget these things sometime, we have to keep it on. I dont think Al or Darren would be happy if they logged on to show some guys the site and pulled up a thread filled with swears.

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Re: "Power Gaming" - why bother???

Post  Guest on Mon Nov 23, 2009 4:46 pm

Well, Robyn unlocked the thread thanks to Gluvzer's intervention, so....

First off, I'd like to know who's using these 'internet lists' so I can play against them and see what all the fuss is about. I'm not too fond of the vague references, if people have a problem with someone, I think it's more respectful to tell him/her straight.

Now to respond to a couple quotes:
As a new person to the game, i find it interesting that you are able to dispense so much wisdom. There are allot of flaws in the arguments you are presenting, but i dont have the time or desire to point them out

seriously? If you're referring to Holycause's post, I thought that with the exception of the apparent "let noobs hang out to dry" attitude (Which I understand but disagree with), he had some good points... in fact they're fairly similar to the ones I was (trying, at least) to make earlier.

I reccomend a good dose of social boycotting until the offenders are left without any players to play against! Blackball the =I=censor=I= out of them!

If that was a joke, It was lost in the web. If it wasn't, then:
Please inform me of who you're boycotting so I can make sure to play them, b/c I think it's uncalled for. If you don't like the way someone plays, don't play against them, it's a simple, easy, and logical solution. Trying to convince others to avoid someone b/c of your opinion, on the other hand, sits very poorly with me. Most gamers are fairly intelligent people, let them decide for themselves, hopefully after they've given this so-called 'offender' a chance to prove himself worthy or unworthy of said blackball.

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The true point of this post...

Post  miv305 on Mon Nov 23, 2009 5:00 pm

Ok folks it looks like people are starting to lose sight of what this post was all about. It was not targeted at any one person or group of people. It was not to say that someones list is the only factor that makes him/her a WAAC player. What is is trying to say is that people need to be careful when min/maxing or else things can, and will, get out of hand. I've seen it before and we all know history tends to repeat itself. I've heard all the reasons why it's not a big deal but already people have noticed and trouble is a brewing. The fact that this topic is so contentious is proof of that fact.

I don't want to see people refuse games or see "cliques" of players who only play each other. Part of the reason (I assume) we joins leagues is to play folks we don't play all the time, it keeps things fresh and fun.

If people keep playing their min/max lists things will turn sour, people will lose interest, the player base will shrink and that really defeats the whole purpose of a league.

If min/maxing is your thing then go ahead and do it but let people know that you enjoy games with a more "compettive" flair. Like Robyn said, it can be fun once in awhile to bring the cheese but for the love of god don't do it to a 13 year old playing his second game of 5th edition , save it for someone else you know that swings the same way Razz

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Re: "Power Gaming" - why bother???

Post  System Commander on Mon Nov 23, 2009 5:09 pm

Id have to agree with Scott on that one. If someone is bringing a goofy list week after week and no one is enjoying playing against it, words going to spread and eventually they'll be out opponents unless they can get their friends toplay them.

Their's n sportsmanship scores so are only recourse in this league is to tease them into submission, or to deny game challenges.

So, note to all those out there. If your finding it hard to fine a game it's either because people dont like your list or you need to be a bit friendlier. If people are teasing you about your list every week or a unit you have, then think about changing it up a bit. Isn't it funner to win or challenge yourself with a weaker list than one that has an advantage before the game starts? When you win, its 100 times more satisfying. in my opinion.

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Re: "Power Gaming" - why bother???

Post  Paz on Mon Nov 23, 2009 5:54 pm

I am glad to see this thread has not been locked. Its interesting to see that there are quite a few players (mostly the older ones) who feel the league is degenerating. I've also noticed allot of the people who say that there is not much power-gaming, are from the younger crowd (except you Tim, Oldy McOlderson).
I for one agree with the "change in league attitude" side. I decided to stop going to Wednesday nights, because it just wasn't fun any more. Not to say I'm boycotting league night, or that I think others should, far from it. I just think everyone who feels there is no problem, should look around. How many ppl feel like the league isn't fun anymore?
I think the biggest reason I don't feel the same about the 40k league is the move from it being about modeling and painting equally; versus being about new or better units, and the win army. I'll play those armies, and have some fun, but after a while, playing single color marines, or plastic every-other-army becomes bland and stale. Lets see some armies picked for looks! lets see some story driven armies!
This is not WOW or CoD, 40k is 50% hobby, 50% tactics and game-play.

Jemal= I would avoid finger-pointing and call outs. This is a community forum, not the intranetz, don't call people out unless you are ready to do it in person Neutral This group has been around a long time, and some of the guys here know each other quite well, and have experienced all the ebbs and flows of the 40k scene. Take a breath, and if you do have a big problem with someone's post, face-to-face avoids flame wars and missunderstandings. A suggestion Smile

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Re: "Power Gaming" - why bother???

Post  Lord_Commander_Stash on Mon Nov 23, 2009 6:14 pm

As for myself, I usually like taking the odd crazy unit which may not be considered much of a competitive unit. Overall I usually design my army lists to be able to deal with all threats: monsterous creatures, 2+ armour saves, hordes, heavy vehicles. In doing so, I also try to maximize the efficiency (usefulness/points cost) of each unit) Which I guess can be considered a form of min maxing. This is somewhat of the standard I am used to playing against, and I am more than willing to cater to players who would rather have a more casual style of play.


I think that the trend towards "power gaming" can be caused by two ways:

1) There are a bunch of new groups of players joining the larger group of the Hunters of the Warp. Different standards from different groups may be conflicting, thus making the appearance of some players power gaming. This should smooth itself out with time.

2) the league is much much larger, thus to keep up with the top scores (especially those who have time to play many games) requires a change in strategy; either play more games or make the games you play count for more points.

I dont think power gamers in the league as it stands is too much of an issue. People who dont want to play them still have a large pool of players to play against. There is also a decent number of players who are willing to play layed-back, or more competitively to keep the 'power gamers' occupied.

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Re: "Power Gaming" - why bother???

Post  Terran on Mon Nov 23, 2009 8:53 pm

So I had a long-drummed up response written, then my Sask-tel box died and the interwebz went with it. Anyway, the Coles Notes version:

I am not entirely convinced that an Army-list is an excellent measure of a min/maxing WAAC player. Every Codex has it's units that people say are garbage (even on this forum). Advocating that people should be including them in lists because to do otherwise is 'min/maxing' is somewhat unfair.

I would also like to state that I am unsure if there is an army-list that could truly be considered over-powered cheese (i.e., the Bell of Lost Souls net-lists people rant about). Ok, so you play a really hard list, and maybe your opponent is gloating about how great it is an how impossible it is to beat. Well, if he consistently brings it, I would advocate having players not necessarily black-ball him, instead having them bring lists that are not all-comers lists. Bring a list that is geared to cracking his super-unit (or w/e it is). After a few shattering losses because everyone modified their lists, I would bet money that said cheese list would disappear and balance back towards 'normal'. But, maybe I am being naive.

Finally, as many people have said, I feel a better measure for WAAC is how the player acts (rather than the list on the table). I used to have to write the following statement back when I was a regular WoW player: IT IS JUST A GAME. For those who might be deriving a bit to much unhealthy enjoyment out of smashing people's faces in, maybe self-examine and tone it down. To be honest, I am not entirely sure who these WAAC players might be, because I can truly say that everyone I have met/played so far has been above-board in sportsmanship. But, I am new to this league, so maybe I can't recognize the 40k versions of Elitist Angry Players.

I must admit that this mini-rant has been somewhat motivated by the Eldar call-out I have seen on the board, wherein an Aspect Warrior heavy force w/ a bunch of Wave Serpents was provided as an example of min./maxing WAAC playing. As far as I am aware, I am the only player currently using an Eldar army, and it is Aspect Warrior heavy. I use 4 Wave Serpents in my 1750 list. I use special characters, and avoid certain units because they just aren't great. I would also be the first to say that my various lists are usually glass hammers, and that I can't take a right-hook to save my life. My record in the League is far from amazing, with me having largely drawn/lost most of my games. I would hate to think that some people would consider me a min./maxing player just because of my army.

And Paz, I would love to pit my painted Space elves against any of your amazingly painted armies any day. Feel free to PM me should you ever want a game with a painted army Wink. I echo the sentiment that some more of the hobby-end would be nice to see, but simultaneously understand that people have lives and commitments that may inhibit it to some degree.

Hmmm, I guess I re-created the wall-o-text that I lost. I apologize to everyone's cerebrum.

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Re: "Power Gaming" - why bother???

Post  Veyure on Mon Nov 23, 2009 9:25 pm

Power-gaming to me is when a player looses sight of having a mutually enjoyable game and focuses purely on winning.

A 'win at all costs' player is a power-gamer who not only lost sight of having a mutually enjoyable game, but is so obsessed with winning that they'll employ dirty rules lawyering and under handed tricks.

At this point, I don't think the people who bring really strong lists are power gamers. However, the unpleasantness others may have fighting a cheesy list might cause some escalation into power gaming.

I want to win as much as the next person, but alas i cannot guarantee i can buy those fancy units that might give me that edge. instead i go for the fun stuff that no one tries. Right now i am using a pure catachan army. I did a bit of research and found out that no battle tanks show up in any jungle fighting army, despite GW displaying catachans with tanks. I'm told by many people that i should buy tanks instead of artilliary, but i just don't see the point in playing a list that someone else might use. A heavy armour list seems to be the norm these days, mostly because of how tough vehicles are now. I'm sticking to a almost entirely infantry list despite the fact that i'm not winning any games.

There is a challenge in taking a not-so-powerful list and finding the tactics to take it to victory. Mass tanks, complex crisis suits w/ lots of drones, and twin lash princes. These things will get you some wins (Not every game) but i don't think i would find them very fun to play.

I would play crisis suits with tons of kroot, now that would be a fun list to bring out.
I don't mean to try and single you out Tyson and Jim but those lists just seem pretty decked out in my opinion and I don't really have any other examples that i've encountered..

And i was not thinking of you cam, twin lash is well known cheese everywhere, not just from you.

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Re: "Power Gaming" - why bother???

Post  Guest on Mon Nov 23, 2009 9:28 pm

Disclaimer: I still very new to the WH40k gaming world, so my vision of what I'd like to get out of the game may not line up with what's actually there, so my points may be moot!

Just a thought, maybe this thread, and the "high number of players, space restrictions, and multiple leagues?" thread can come to a conclusion together? The creation of a fluff-heavy campaign league could really encourage some fluffy list play (along with some house rules to help said lists be more balanced?, a pure competition gaming league could allow people to get out there "powergaming", and a "painting league" (Where maybe the "price" of a game as opposed to strategic points or something is you painting a new unit up). I know myself, if there was such an option, I'd be heavily interested in the campaign and 'painting' league.

Another way for people to keep an eye on min-maxing (if my understanding of the concept is correct), is to use the "time slots" idea from a post of Lord_Commander_stash's (in another thread), but also use 'random' opponents. If you don't know what you're playing; does this help limit min-maxing? And since people also like playing against there friends, you could do both a random night and a non-random night, possibly with more league points rewarded for a victory against a random army?

I apologize if I'm stepping on any toes as I'm still new here, but I thought I'd throw out some ideas I had and see if some of the vets thought there was potential to any of them.

-Jared

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Re: "Power Gaming" - why bother???

Post  Guest on Mon Nov 23, 2009 9:28 pm

Paz wrote:
Jemal= I would avoid finger-pointing and call outs. This is a community forum, not the intranetz, don't call people out unless you are ready to do it in person Neutral This group has been around a long time, and some of the guys here know each other quite well, and have experienced all the ebbs and flows of the 40k scene. Take a breath, and if you do have a big problem with someone's post, face-to-face avoids flame wars and missunderstandings. A suggestion Smile

I'm not calling for finger pointing, I just think that if people have a problem with someone, they should tell that person, otherwise how is the 'offender' supposed to know that there's a problem? A problem can only be solved once its existance is known. I can't recall hearing people say anything negative about a list at the den.. at least, not to the person who ran the list. I can't count the number of times I've overheard people confiding in their friends after a game about what was wrong with the game they just had, and that right there is a major problem. If you've got an issue with someone - either how they play, their interpretation of the rules, or their list - why pretend everything is fine and then complain about it to someone else? That's not going to fix anything.

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Re: "Power Gaming" - why bother???

Post  Guest on Mon Nov 23, 2009 9:37 pm

Veyure wrote:
I don't mean to try and single you out Tyson and Jim but those lists just seem pretty decked out in my opinion and I don't really have any other examples that i've encountered..

No offense taken, I had assumed mine was one of the lists people had issue with, and I'm glad you actually had the balls to say it out loud. Smile

In my defense however, my army has been 'tanking up' for a while now, every time I get a new tank model i want to try it out, and it ended up being the whole list full of tanks.. which I ended up finding both more fun and more effective.
I've only been playing all mech for my last 4 strategic games (Though come to think of it, every Recon game this league, which is getting a bit stale), and have allready made up my list for the next batch of games. I tend to run a different list every couple weeks or so. I have about a dozen different lists b/c I love trying out different combinations of units. One of the biggest selling points of the guard to me was the vast variety. Whereas some people are content playing the same list for months at a time, I have so many cool units to try out, I can't do that.
If somebody wants to play against a non-mech list, all they have to do is ask, I've got plenty of units I like using, I just prefer the tanks b/c tanks are freaking cool.

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Re: "Power Gaming" - why bother???

Post  Guest on Mon Nov 23, 2009 10:58 pm

Veyure wrote:
I would play crisis suits with tons of kroot, now that would be a fun list to bring out.
I don't mean to try and single you out Tyson and Jim but those lists just seem pretty decked out in my opinion and I don't really have any other examples that i've encountered..

I suppose I need to say one simple thing here. I take a little bit of offense to the concept that people believe I picked farsight because he is a cheese list. Getting past the fact that my win/loss record isn't exactly spectacular with that list, do people just ignore the possibility that I took a look at Farsight and decided that he looked really cool and I wanted to play him because of it? My list was chosen from the getgo for the fluff before I even knew the rules, and this is just what I happened to get out of it. That is the main reason why I play my army. The second reason I play my army is because I enjoy watching farsight compete in melee against other melee armies. Tau is not supposed to do that. I enjoy that concept.

I don't even like playing just crisis suits. I hate my recon army. The reason why I don't use some of the other Tau recon choices is because I feel the need to impose Farsights restictions on his recon army in addition to his normal game. Kroots and ethereals rule for recon games. But they don't fit the army they are reconing for. (I am switching out my crisis suits in my recon lists btw, tried stealth teams against imperial guard armor for disasterous results last time Razz ).

And lastly, I agree that kroots and crisis would be an interesting combination, but it means I would need to rebuy a significant amount of my already expensive $ wise army.

I will also mention that during my rovings through the internet I don't exactly see huge piles Farsight uber death lists crowding the forums. In fact, I've never seen a farsight list online. Even jim's list avaoids using the melta and plasma the the cheese mechlist online prefer to use. We didn't template out armies from the internet. We made out list ourselves. Without internets support.

Now the last thing I'm going to bring up is that I play the same army in my matches for one simple reason. I don't like tailering my force for whoever I am facing. I don't like keeping army secrets. Its bad enough trying to explain some of the taus more meessed up rules like the failsafe detonater to players who haven't seen it before. I like my opponents knowing what I use so they have a fair shot at it. And my weapon selection is static throughout the entire league. I could switch out all my missile pods for plasma rifles to kill space marines. I could take out guard better if I switched out the plasma rifles for fusion guns. The last league finals I ended up going against all 3+ armor armies where my missile pods were at a huge disadvantage. I play to be fair, not to cheap my opponents out with what works against them.

This seeds into my biggest issue which is peoples take on my complex units. Because I like to gear up my crisis suits to deal with versitile situation instead of specializing it, the squad carries a lot of different weapons and gear. Out of 7 suits in the squad, 5 of them are already unique because of this. I will admit that I upped the last 2 by dropping their blacksun filters, but this is more of a simpler paperwork issue than it is an ingame advantage one. My units being able to shunt wounds like they do is a sideeffect of the different weapons they carried to begin with. It was NOT the goal of the army.

In fact, I will present the choice to my opponents from now on to make this fair. Would you guys prefer I use my take all comers complex list that has already been showcased and has undergone zero changes since entering last league? Or would you rather face a squad of suits who are all identical and given the weapons that are best at killing whatever you are using?

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Re: "Power Gaming" - why bother???

Post  Veyure on Mon Nov 23, 2009 11:14 pm

Thanks for clearing up your choice of lists. I appreciate both of you not going nuts over my comment.
I just figured people were tiptoing around and i am usually the one to tackle the tough ones.
I try to be open if i can, and i usually get flamed by many of my veteran friends which is fine because i know i'm better looking than them all. Right ryan and scott? Wink

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Re: "Power Gaming" - why bother???

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