hive tyrant guard

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hive tyrant guard

Post  judchic on Sat Oct 03, 2009 10:51 am

so found an interesting question. if a hive tyrant has tyrant guard and is behind a group of gaunts does it get a cover save? the tyrant guard are infantry not monsterous creatures so does that give the tyrant a cover save til all the guards are dead then reverting to normal?

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Re: hive tyrant guard

Post  Terran on Sat Oct 03, 2009 11:15 am

Monstrous creatures don't gain cover like infantry models. From my understanding, despite having a retinue of Tyrant Guard, the Hive Tyrant remains a monstrous creature. So unless he is more than 50% out of LOS from the firing model, he wouldn't gain the cover.

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Re: hive tyrant guard

Post  Veyure on Sat Oct 03, 2009 11:42 am

I would argue that it would get a cover save. Because the tyrant and guard are a unit together, then because at least 50% of the unit will benefit from a cover save then the whole unit will including the tyrant. It work the same with monstrous creatures or vehicles in squadrons you could have 2 and as long as one benefits with cover, the other could be out in the open and still benefit from the save.

The squadron cover saves in in the vehicle section of the rulebook somewhere. I'm too lazy to go look it up.

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Re: hive tyrant guard

Post  Terran on Sat Oct 03, 2009 3:53 pm

However, the cover save comes into play when the wounds are allocated. Being in a unit with two models that benefits from cover doesn't make the tyrant 'infantry'. It still remains a monstrous creature. I would still argue that the tyrant wouldn't get the save. His guard could, as (i believe) they are infantry, as opposed to monstrous creatures.

I just see your interpretation leading to very unusual circumstances, Veyure. Example: You have a tyrant and two tyrant guard. They are standing near a ruin. The unit can be seen by a squad of lascannon toting devastators. Now, the 'nid player decides to move his tyrant guard into the ruin, while remaining in coherency with the tyrant. The guard now benefit from a cover save, as they are in area terrain. By your logic, the Hive Tyrant (who is, lets remember, standing in plain view of the devastators, not in any sort of cover), would benefit from a cover save as well, as more than 1/2 his unit is currently in cover. I just don't see the sense in that, as he is still a monstrous creature standing in plain view of the unit of devastators.

I would like to add, that my involvement in this question is purely academic. If someone can point out where in the rules this is would make sense, please do so. As I can't find a section that makes the cover save in the above situation seem legit.

Very Happy

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Re: hive tyrant guard

Post  Veyure on Sat Oct 03, 2009 5:06 pm

On page 22 of the rule book 2nd column 2nd paragraph it says, "If half or more of the models in the target unit are in cover, then the ENTIRE unit is deemed to be in cover and all of it's models may take cover saves."

On page 36 of the tyranid codex under the tyrant guard entry it says, "The tyrant guard form a retinue with the tyrant." aka a unit.

The FAQ for tyranids mention how the tyrant is affected when in unit of guard, "This unit follows the rules for retinues (except that the Hive Tyrant counts as an upgrade character with this unit) until the Guards are all destroyed, at which point the Hive Tyrant reverts to the normal rules for monstrous creatures."

So using all these rules and errata i can honestly say that my statement is legit.

That's me in an argument i want to win. Very Happy

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Re: hive tyrant guard

Post  System Commander on Sat Oct 03, 2009 5:16 pm

The unit definitely gets a cover save if there are guants in front of it.

If the Tyrant only had one guard left and that guard was in cover, the unit would still get a cover save because 50% or more of it is in cover. In this cuircumstance, being a monstrous creature has nothing to do with the cover save. The guard are doing what they are supposed to be doing, guarding that poor tyrant.

Im assuming the confusion is coming becasue the Tyrant is a monstrous creature?

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Re: hive tyrant guard

Post  Guest on Sat Oct 03, 2009 5:29 pm

My understanding is that the UNIT will receive a cover save if 50% of the MODELS qualify.

It comes up for vehicles too. If you have a unit of 2 Imperial Guard tanks or Sentinels, and 1 of them blows smoke, then both tanks receive the cover save because 50% of the unit is entitled to the cover save.

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Re: hive tyrant guard

Post  System Commander on Sat Oct 03, 2009 5:38 pm

Unless your playing Tau.. then nothing you have will get any cover saves.. ever. I found that out the hard way Wed. night.. I guess I should take that back, I was able to roll a few 6+ cover saves.. Smile

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Re: hive tyrant guard

Post  Terran on Sat Oct 03, 2009 6:26 pm

Yeah, that is where my confusion is coming from. I also noticed the exact wording in the vehicle section which is something to the effect of 'determine the cover saves for the models individually (ignoring other models of the unit) and then check for the unit as a whole.' That contributed to some of my confusion, as I originally read it as or. With my first reading I assumed that you treated the Guard as infantry and the Tyrant as a MC.

As I don't own a copy of the Tyranid codex (waiting for the new version), I forgot that those silly retinue rules were in effect.

Though I seriously have to laugh at the mental image of a Tyrant standing in the open waving 'Hellllooooo! I am in cover!'

Laughing

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