The Voodoo Formation

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The Voodoo Formation

Post  Guest on Fri Sep 25, 2009 1:48 pm

Since I haven't played any games here yet, I was wondering what the local opinion is of manoeuvres such as the Voodoo Formation?

For those who may not have heard of it, that's the idea that two interleaved units provide mutual cover saves to each other since more than 50% of each unit is behind members of the other.

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Re: The Voodoo Formation

Post  System Commander on Fri Sep 25, 2009 2:13 pm

Ill assume you mean you have two units, and you intermingled together to advance?

Nobody uses that here, but you might have to explain it a bit better..

If it more or less what I stated above, I cant see it being that good. The units that are interweaved will have to within the 2" of coherency of the other unit.. meaning that in the interweaved part, each model will more or less be 1/2" apart from the other unit.

I used to be particular about unit coherency when I started, trying to make sure that each guy is close to being 2" away from the other guy, etc. In the end, you spend alot of time sorting your guys.. and if you have priarily foot sloggers.. thats alot of time for your opponent.

Im guessing you want to do it so each squad gets cover saves? Your not worried about templates landing on the bunched portions?

If I got it wrong, youll have to explain it more.

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Re: The Voodoo Formation

Post  Guest on Fri Sep 25, 2009 2:24 pm

Well I'm not really considering it for use really, I just wanted to gauge the "roll with it"-ness of the gaming league I suppose. Figure out where on the RAW spectrum the league lies.

Yeah, that's the Voodoo formation, you interleave the models of two units so that more than 50% of each unit is behind or between members of the other unit. The easiest I have seen it done is with vertical ranks like so:
Code:
XOXOXO
XOXOXO
XOXOXO
      XO 

Still a pain to turn around or whatnot , no real benefit from the flanks and of course blasts and templates would be a weakness.

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Re: The Voodoo Formation

Post  Veyure on Fri Sep 25, 2009 3:21 pm

I for one will call you on any cheesy maneuver that takes away from the fun aspect of the game. and if you are spending the time to interweave your men then i will probably not be very happy and might not even play you again. the league here is about fun and getting together with friends, not racking up the wins to prove you are better than every other gamer around. (That's for finals and tournaments)

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Re: The Voodoo Formation

Post  Guest on Fri Sep 25, 2009 3:24 pm

So what counts as a cheesy manoeuvre? What counts as following the rules?

And bear in mind that with the vertical column formation that I posted above, it wouldn't take any longer at all to move the units. They're in columns and they move in columns.

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Re: The Voodoo Formation

Post  Veyure on Fri Sep 25, 2009 3:34 pm

This maneuver kinda is. And it takes away from the flavour of the rule. The idea is that a unit shooting at a group of beings that are blocked by another group would get a cover save because the shooting unit is trying to avoid hiting what's in front of them in favour of hitting their intended target. This would mean the shooters would withhold pulling the trigger, shoot too wide, etc.

I didn't mean for my last post to sound so negative and accusatory. I didn't realize how it came off until i just reread it. Crying or Very sad

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Re: The Voodoo Formation

Post  System Commander on Fri Sep 25, 2009 3:49 pm

Well, the basics of it is that the formation is legal. There are positives.. cover saves for both units.. but there are negatives as well. The biggest being tied up really close together. 2 flamers, or even one would take those units of guard out pretty fast.

Getting assaulted would be ugly as well, especially for guard.. both units would get assaulted easily.

I think what it comes down to is that there are benefits and drawbacks for the formation, the biggest drawback being your opponent probably wont like it.

With the games that happen down at the den, we have alot of terrain and are easily in and around the 25% covered guidelines. I think once you gave it a try and had to deal with terrain, vehicles, templates etc. you'd quickly find it's easier to not use it.

There was talk of it at the beginning of 5th edition in our league.. but with the template and blast changes, it just didnt seem like it would payoff. Im not sure if anyone experiemented with it or not.

If it did spread and everyone was using it, Id think about faq'ing it like Adepticon did.. and assign a league rule so that you'd have to choose one unit that would benefit from the cover save. I dont think the rule was intended to do this, but like alot of GW things.. they chose to not address it.

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Re: The Voodoo Formation

Post  smackman on Fri Sep 25, 2009 4:44 pm

I'm going to have to say its outside the spirit of the rules, because I'm assuming that the front row of that column formation is all plasma/melta guns that you're not going to let me get a cover save from for you shooting through the other unit. Better off to be less cheeze and make a distiction about which unit is actually covering the other. Like operation black shield (south park):

XXXXX
XOOOOX
XOOOOX
X OO

as someone who foot slogs ALOT of boyz I can definately say that even that will get some eye rolls at the den, I wouldn't even dream of using the voodoo formation with 120 orks intermingled... however kickass it would be.

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Re: The Voodoo Formation

Post  Guardian Angel on Sun Sep 27, 2009 12:06 am

Another downside of the formation....

Everything those units fire at will get a cover save as well.

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Re: The Voodoo Formation

Post  Guest on Sun Sep 27, 2009 2:04 am

Unless you only fire the front rank.

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Re: The Voodoo Formation

Post  Paz on Sun Sep 27, 2009 2:11 am

I think you could do this, but as Robyn said, not much point. Its easier and safer to use cover, and if you need a 4+ that bad, you most definitely don't want that many weak armor units near each other (your opponent would be mad not to use blast/template on you).
With my guard, I often use the 'black shield' maneuver Tom is referring to with my guard: My body shield infantry in front, command behind, then have, as godhead pointed out, a high AP weapon move ahead of the shield while the meat of it stays behind to get cover. Its rule'sy and fluffy: what 40k commander wouldn't have his expendable men in front?

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Re: The Voodoo Formation

Post  Veyure on Sun Sep 27, 2009 8:42 am

what 40k commander wouldn't have his expendable men in front?

one who cares about the lives of his men. Someone with a heart. Someone with a sense of honour.

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Re: The Voodoo Formation

Post  Guest on Sun Sep 27, 2009 10:52 am

The problem I see with the 50/50 split tactic is that it isn't consistant. While it would provide a benifit for the firsttime the pair was shot at, as soon as one of the units dies, your opponent simply targets the other squad which is now out of cover.

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Re: The Voodoo Formation

Post  System Commander on Sun Sep 27, 2009 3:40 pm

That techinically wouldnt work, since you can take the wounds on the guys at the back. If you did enough wounds and got through the 4+ save enough to casue that many casusaulties, then yes.. you could easily disrupt it.

Even with a 4+ save for everyone, I think you'llbe able to pick it apart very quick.

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Re: The Voodoo Formation

Post  Guest on Sun Sep 27, 2009 4:35 pm

I pesonally think it goes against the spirit of the rules - they're using Each other as human shields? I could see one squad of 'high ranking' or important troops using another as human shields, but two squads mutually doing it? just doesn't make sense. I'd defenitely consider it cheesy, and if someone tried it against me I'd have no problems being cheesy in return.

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Re: The Voodoo Formation

Post  Paz on Sun Sep 27, 2009 4:43 pm

Veyure wrote:
one who cares about the lives of his men. Someone with a heart. Someone with a sense of honour.

You... have read the 40k fluff though, right Greg?

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Re: The Voodoo Formation

Post  Lord_Commander_Stash on Fri Oct 02, 2009 2:24 am

Q and A covered it saying that only the furthest squad gets cover.

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Re: The Voodoo Formation

Post  Guest on Fri Oct 02, 2009 3:04 am

Where? I have looked specifically and found nothing.

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Re: The Voodoo Formation

Post  Administratum on Fri Oct 02, 2009 6:20 am

Where did you find that stash, i checked the GW faq page and could not find anything on it.

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Re: The Voodoo Formation

Post  Veyure on Fri Oct 02, 2009 1:20 pm

Paz wrote:
Veyure wrote:
one who cares about the lives of his men. Someone with a heart. Someone with a sense of honour.

You... have read the 40k fluff though, right Greg?

Have you read any of the books on imperial guard? Every heroic commander wants every man to return safe. And they always freak out when they lose too many men. At least the battlefield commanders are like that. The Army commanders like Generals and such just care about objectives. I however see the battlefield and know what it's like when all my little men end up in a box. I shed a tear for every one. Crying or Very sad

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Re: The Voodoo Formation

Post  System Commander on Fri Oct 02, 2009 2:51 pm

If your playing guard, thats alot of tears your going to be shedding.. that is you play like me.

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Re: The Voodoo Formation

Post  Lord_Commander_Stash on Fri Oct 02, 2009 9:49 pm

I know it is in a clarification somewhere, since that is how I first heard about it.

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Re: The Voodoo Formation

Post  Guest on Sat Oct 03, 2009 12:56 am

I don't want to say you're making that up, but you're making that up.

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Re: The Voodoo Formation

Post  Timbo on Sat Oct 03, 2009 1:10 am

It was in a clarifcation for a GW sanctioned tournament. So that is how it gets played in GW events, but the official errata has not addressed it.

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Re: The Voodoo Formation

Post  Lord_Commander_Stash on Sat Oct 03, 2009 1:30 am

GodHead wrote:I don't want to say you're making that up, but you're making that up.

lol not making it up...might not have the source straight, but I am SURE that I heard about this twice: Once from a rules clarification and once from this topic Wink

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Re: The Voodoo Formation

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